STATE
WATER RESOURCES CONTROL BOARD
PUBLIC
HEARING
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REGARDING
STREAM AND WATERFOWL HABITAT RESTORATION PLANS
AND
GRANT LAKE OPERATIONS AND MANAGEMENT PLAN SUBMITTED BY
THE
LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER PURSUANT TO
THE
REQUIREMENTS OF WATER RIGHT DECISION 1631
HELD
AT:
STATE WATER RESOURCES CONTROL BOARD
PAUL BONDERSON BUILDING
901 P STREET, FIRST FLOOR HEARING ROOM
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 1997
9:00 AM
REPORTED BY: TERI
L. VERES, CSR NO. 7522, RMR
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1
APPEARANCES
2
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3 BOARD MEMBERS:
4 JOHN
CAFFREY, CHAIRMAN
JOHN W. BROWN, VICE CHAIR
5 JAMES
STUBCHAER
MARY
JANE FORSTER
6
STAFF MEMBERS:
7
JAMES CANADAY, ENVIRONMENTAL SPECIALIST
8 GERALD
E. JOHNS, ASSISTANT DIVISION CHIEF
9 COUNSEL:
10 DAN
FRINK, ESQ.
11 NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY:
MONO LAKE COMMITTEE:
12
MORRISON & FOERSTER
13 425
Market Street
San Francisco, California
94105
14
BY: F. BRUCE
DODGE, ESQ.
15 HEIDE
HOPKINS
GREG REISE
16 PETER
VORSTER
17 PANEL
MEMBERS:
18 Frederic
A. Reid, M.S., Ph.D
W. David Shuford
19 William
J. Trush, Ph.D.
20
LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER:
21
KRONICK, MOSKOVITZ, TIEDEMANN & GIRARD
22 400
CAPITOL Mall, 27th Floor
Sacramento, California 95814
23 BY:
THOMAS W. BIRMINGHAM, ESQ.
and
24
JANET GOLDSMITH, ESQ.
25
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
846
1
APPEARANCES CONT'D
2
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3 RICHARD L. RIDENHOUR:
4
RICHARD L. RIDENHOUR, Ph.D.
5 CALIFORNIA TROUT, INC.:
6 NATURAL
HERITAGE INSTITUTE
114 Sansome Street, Suite 1200
7 San
Francisco, California 94104
BY:
RICHARD ROOS-COLLINS, ESQ.
8
CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME:
9
McDONOUGH, HOLLAND & ALLEN
10 555
CAPITOL Mall, Ninth Floor
Sacramento, California 95814
11 BY:
VIRGINIA A. CAHILL, ESQ.
12 THE
RESOURCES AGENCY
1416 Ninth Street, 12th Floor
13 Sacramento,
California 95814
BY: NANCEE MURRAY,
ESQ.
14
CALIFORNIA STATE LANDS COMMISSION:
15 CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF PARKS AND
RECREATION:
16 DEPARTMENT
OF JUSTICE
MARY J. SCOONOVER, Deputy Attorney General
17 1300
I Street
Sacramento, California 95814
18
MICHAEL VALENTINE
19
20
21
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22
23
24
25
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
847
1
INDEX
2
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3
PAGE
NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO LAKE COMMITTEE:
4 (PANEL OF FREDERIC A. REID, Ph.D. and
W. DAVID SHUFORD)
5 DIRECT
EXAMINATION
6
BY MR. DODGE...............................857
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8
BY MS. GOLDSMITH...........................873
(QUESTIONS ASKED BY MR. CANADAY FOR BLM)
9
BY MR. CANADAY.............................903
(QUESTIONS ASKED BY MR. JOHNS FOR BELLOMOS)
10
BY MR. JOHNS...............................906
BY MS.
CAHILL..............................929
11
BY MS. SCOONOVER...........................945
BY MR. FRINK...............................961
12
BY MR. CANADAY.............................975
BY BOARD MEMBER BROWN......................990
13
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14
BY MR. DODGE...............................992
15
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
16
BY MS. GOLDSMITH...........................1003
17
BY MS. SCOONOVER...........................1013
18
RICHARD L. RIDENHOUR
19
(PRESENTING DIRECT TESTIMONY ON HIS OWN BEHALF)
20 DIRECT
EXAMINATION
21
BY DR. RIDENHOUR...........................1018
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23
BY MS. GOLDSMITH...........................1024
BY MR. ROOS-COLLINS........................1025
24
BY MS. CAHILL..............................1031
BY MR. DODGE...............................1046
25
BY MR. CANADAY.............................1061
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
848
1
INDEX
CONT'D
2
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3 NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO
LAKE COMMITTEE:
(WILLIAM J. TRUSH, Ph.D.)
4
DIRECT EXAMINATION
5
BY MR. DODGE...............................1065
6
CROSS-EXAMINATION
7
BY MR. ROOS-COLLINS........................1069
8
BY MS. CAHILL..............................1083
BY MR. CANADAY.............................1094
9
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10
BY MR. DODGE...............................1095
11
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12
BY MR. BIRMINGHAM..........................1098
13
BY MR. JOHNS...............................1099
14 AFTERNOON
SESSION.......................................945
15
16
17
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18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
849
1
SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA
2
TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 1997, 9:08 AM
3
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4 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Good morning and
welcome back to
5 the Mono Lake Restoration Plan
proceeding. In case there
6 are any new faces in the audience, my
name is John Caffrey.
7 I'm the Chairman of the State Water
Resources Control Board
8 and I am acting as Hearing Officer in
this proceeding.
9 With
me today is our Board's Vice Chair, John Brown.
10 Other Board Members may be joining us
throughout the day.
11 This is in keeping with what I had
announced in a previous
12 hearing.
13 I'd
also like to make an announcement about a dear
14 friend and colleague, Marc Del Piero.
Some of you may not
15 know this, but Marc about a week and
a half ago, maybe two
16 weeks ago sustained a very serious
back injury. He has
17 undergone surgery last Wednesday, and
I've been trying to
18 get an update on what his current
condition is. As late as
19 last Friday they were concerned about
the outcome of the
20 surgery and were considering the
possibility of yet another
21
surgery, but we hadn't heard yet.
22 So,
anyway, we'll try to keep you informed.
Marc has
23 been an integral part of the Mono
Lake process since its
24 inception more or less publicly
before this Board, and so
25 we're very concerned.
It isn't anything that he's not going
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
850
1 to recover from, but he's in a lot of
pain and our thoughts
2 are with him.
3 He
also wants you all to know that his interest in
4 this proceeding, in the outcome of
this proceeding remains
5 very high and the record of these
proceedings will be
6 available to Marc at all times. So knowing his level of
7 dedication, I know that he will be
-- continue to be very
8 involved in this, but I wanted you
all to know.
9 With
that, then, let the record also show that we have
10 been joined by Mr. Stubchaer. Good morning, Mr. Stubchaer.
11 BOARD
MEMBER STUBCHAER: Good morning, Mr. Chairman.
12
CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: And
when last we were convened we
13 had gone through partial
cross-examination of the Bureau of
14 Land Management and then we had some
discussion that we were
15 going to move ahead with a slightly
different schedule to
16 accommodate certain witnesses and
certain parties with the
17 schedule that we had laid out for
today and then three days
18 next week.
19 So
I presume that everybody has had a copy -- received
20 their copy of the new schedule such
as it is and we will try
21 to adhere to that as best we can. The schedule I refer to
22 is the one that went with the letter
that I signed recently
23 to the parties and we'll try to keep
with that. Whether or
24 not we'll be able to stay with it in
terms of finishing each
25 day precisely with everything that we
had hoped to cover,
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
851
1 that will remain to be seen; but I
would like to ask all of
2 the attorneys representing the
parties, as well as the
3 witnesses representing the parties,
to do the best you can
4 to be succinct and crisp.
5 We're
not looking, especially from the witnesses, for
6 dissertations in your answers. We know that there's a great
7 deal of expertise in the room, but we
would prefer that you
8 be very direct in your answer, very
clear and make it as
9 short as you can in the interest of
getting through this
10 proceeding in the time that remains
so that we can get on
11 with the development and adoption of
an order by the Board
12 so that we can get to the actual
action of protecting the
13
environs of the lake.
14 With
that, then, unless there is something from the
15 other Board Members or anything I
might have overlooked,
16 Mr. Frink, may we proceed with the
schedule as laid out?
17 MR.
FRINK: Yes, Mr. Caffrey.
There was only one
18 comment I had, and that was the
schedule that was attached
19 to your letter that went out last
week listed a couple of
20 panels of witnesses for today and it
indicated that
21 Dr. Ridenhour would be appearing on a
panel with some other
22 witnesses.
23 My
understanding is he would prefer to appear
24 separately, and it looks like it
would accommodate
25 everybody's schedule and interest
best if we completed the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
852
1 testimony of him before we got into
the other witnesses on
2 stream matters.
But that will come later in the day after
3 the testimony on waterfowl matters by
Mr. Reid and
4 Mr. Shuford.
5
CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: But
the concept is that we'll have
6 Mr. Ridenhour presenting his direct
separately and not a
7 part of the kind of a mixed panel.
8 MR.
FRINK: Yes, that's right.
9
CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All
right. You'll please
remind me
10 of that if I forget when we get to
Mr. Ridenhour.
11 Good
morning, Mr. Dodge, and welcome, sir.
12 MR.
DODGE: Thank you, good
morning.
13 Mr.
Johns had a suggestion that I was actually
14 thinking about myself.
So I want to just sort of announce
15 it so everyone's aware of it.
16 I
have very short testimony, which would be my Exhibit
17 3 and 3A from Southern California
Edison, and specifically
18 from a gentleman named Ken Varnell,
who I've never met. The
19 testimony relates to the present
state of the return ditch
20
that goes from below the Lundy Powerhouse back to Mill
21 Creek.
22 I
anticipate -- I understand Mr. Varnell is on the
23 eastern side representing SCE. I would have a marginal
24
preference that he be here and testify; but if
people are
25 willing to stipulate that the
exhibits that I mentioned
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
853
1 could go into evidence without him
coming over here and
2 testifying I'm prepared to do that,
also.
3 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: And you were
-- when was he
4 scheduled to appear?
5 MR.
DODGE: He's not scheduled
right now.
6 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Oh, I see.
You just wish to bring
7 him on as a witness and we don't have
him anywhere in our
8 schedule at the moment; is that
right?
9 MR.
DODGE: I believe that's
correct.
10 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Would the
parties be willing to
11 stipulate?
Is there any objection to what Mr. Dodge
12 proposes?
13 MS.
GOLDSMITH: DWP has no
objection.
14 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: There does not
appear to be any
15 objection, sir.
If you will offer that, then, at the
16 time -- I presume you
were going to offer that when you
17 offer all of your exhibits into
evidence and we will so
18 stipulate.
19 MR.
DODGE: Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Thank you, Mr.
Dodge.
21
Let the record will
show that we have been joined by
22 Ms. Forster.
23 BOARD
MEMBER FORSTER: Good
morning.
24 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: All right, then
--
25 MS.
GOLDSMITH: Mr. Chairman.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
854
1 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Yes.
2 MS.
GOLDSMITH: I also have a
housekeeping matter.
3 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: All right,
please.
4 MS.
GOLDSMITH: Because Mr.
Birmingham is unable to be
5 here today and he has the primary
responsibility for
6 cross-examining Mr. Vorster,
he'd like to defer his
7 cross-examination until Mr.
Vorster's next appearance which,
8 I believe, is scheduled for next
week.
9 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: So that there
would be no
10
cross-examination from the City at all then of Mr.
Vorster?
11 MS.
GOLDSMITH: At this point.
12 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: At this point.
13 MS.
GOLDSMITH: It would be
deferred and he would do
14 that next week.
15 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Is there any
objection?
16 MR.
DODGE: We'd be happy to
accommodate that.
17 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: All right, that
will be the order.
18 We will allow that.
19 MR.
DODGE: I assume the other
parties will
20 cross-examine Mr. Vorster.
21 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: I'm sorry, Mr.
Dodge?
22 MR.
DODGE: I assume the other
parties who are here
23 today will cross-examine Mr.
Vorster.
24 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: I certainly
would make that
25 assumption.
I'm seeing nobody commenting to the contrary.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
855
1 Mr. Vorster is here and I will
certainly call on you all to
2 cross-examine if you so desire.
3 All
right. Then I believe,
Mr. Dodge, you have a
4 couple witnesses that you want to
bring on as a panel.
5 MR.
DODGE: Yes.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
would
6 like to call Dr. Frederic Reid and
Mr. David Shuford. If
7 you could take a seat over there.
8 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: And this is
entirely for the
9 purposes of the Waterfowl Plan; is
that correct?
10 MR.
DODGE: That is correct,
sir.
11 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: I'm sorry, Mr.
Canaday.
12 MR.
CANADAY: Can we have the
oath, Mr. Chairman.
13 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Oh, thank you
for reminding me.
14 Gentlemen, I presume you were not
here and we need for to
15 you take the oath.
16 Are
there others who are going to appear today and
17 offer testimony that have not taken
the oath? Please, if
18 you will all stand.
Raise your right hand.
19
(Oath administered by Chairman Caffrey.)
20 CHAIRMAN
CAFFREY: Thank you.
All right, please
21 proceed, Mr. Dodge.
22 ///
23 ///
24 ///
25 ///
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
856
1
---oOo---
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO LAKE COMMITTEE:
4 MR. DODGE: Yes. Good morning, gentlemen.
5 Dr. Reid, I would like you to identify Exhibit
6 R-NAS/MLC-2 as your direct testimony and then give us a
7 brief summary of that testimony. And then, Mr. Shuford, I
8 would like you to identify Exhibit R-NAS/MLC-4 as your
9 direct testimony and give us a brief oral summary of that
10 testimony. If we could start with, Dr. Reid.
11 DR. REID: Could you show me that, because I never got
12 the final copy.
13 MR. DODGE: You've been well trained.
14 DR. REID: This is my testimony except, as in the 1993
15 period, my name is misspelled in the front. I have no "k"
16 in "Frederic."
17 My name is Frederic A. Reid. I hold an M.S. and a
18 Ph.D. in Fisheries and Wildlife Ecology from the University
19 of Missouri. I've had the pleasure of speaking to this
20 Board on two other occasions, one on Mono Lake and one on
21 the Yuba River.
22 I have had occasion to work in wetlands across North
23 America over the last about 20 years. I have worked
24 extensively in the Midwest and the Western wetlands. My
25 role currently as Director of Conservation Planning for
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Ducks Unlimited has me identify major wetland landscapes
2 across the Western United States where Ducks Unlimited and
3 other organizations work to preserve, restore and enhance
4 wetland habitats across the continent.
5 This past year our office here in Sacramento, which is
6 responsible for the ten western states in coordinating with
7 Canada and Mexico, delivered approximately 12 million
8 dollars of wetland restoration out of our office.
9 I have been associated with Mono Lake in relationship
10 to the restoration project at DeChambeau Ponds and beginning
11 in 1992 in relation to some of the hearings. I did testify
12 in 1993 in relation to some of the value of waterfowl
13 habitats in the lake where some of these historically
14 probably were and where they might be. I also then was part
15 of the three-man crew of scientists that was brought on by
16 LADWP to provide a plan to them which was listed as the
17 Appendix 1 in the plan that LADWP put forward which provided
18 ideas for waterfowl habitat restoration in the Basin.
19 Since that time I have continued to work in the west
20 and I've also been involved in several wetland restoration
21 projects in Eastern Europe currently working with the World
22 Bank and a number of projects that are related to Mono Lake
23 such as the Siivash Lagoons, the Black Sea, the Sea of Azov,
24 Lake Sevard in the former Soviet Union that has similar
25 challenges to what we see in Mono Lake.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
858
1 I'd like to, if I may, just summarize briefly where
2 there may be some differences between what the three
3 scientists recommended and the LADWP plan.
4 As you look around the lake and you look at what the
5 scientists have recommended, there are some differences in
6 the plan. LADWP does agree with the scientists that a burn
7 procedure -- a plan and procedure to do a mosaic of burns
8 around the Simons Springs area is a good and viable means to
9 increase good quality waterfowl habitat. However, it's not
10 really spelled out in either plan how that is to be directly
11 implemented with the other players that are there, the
12 Forest Service and State Lands.
13 The LADWP plan does agree that jackpot burning is a
14 viable option in the Rush Creek bottoms, and they also agree
15 that some of the distributaries in the Rush Creek that we
16 recommended should also be reopened. These distributaries
17 are in accordance, also, with some of the recommendations by
18 the fisheries and stream groups who we discussed with
19 Dr. Ridenhour about some of those distributaries.
20 As you the continue around the lake, there is
21 restoration at suggested -- at the DeChambeau County
22 Ponds/Black Point area. In the LADWP plan they say that
23 that is feasible, although expensive, provided they can
24 receive some outside funding.
25 The estimates of funding have not changed other than
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
859
1 in my written testimony here I suggest that there is the
2 feasibility to line the County Ponds with a Bentonite, which
3 will take care of any water loss that might occur because of
4 soils. This will increase the cost of the project by
5 probably about somewhere between 40 to 60 thousand dollars,
6 but because of reduced charges in water and pumping that
7 will probably equalize.
8 The main differences that exist between the
9 scientists' report and LADWP is the proposals to restore
10 parts of -- to restore the Mill Creek system and in some of
11 the monitoring aspects. In relation to Mill Creek the
12 scientists suggest that as much water as possible be entered
13 into the system as high up as possible probably at the
14 return ditch system. We recognize that the return ditch
15 system will probably have to have major renovations in order
16 to take these larger flows. There was little discussion in
17 the LADWP plan in that aspect.
18 Looking further at some of the new information that's
19 been forwarded by Edison, it appears that that return ditch
20 may hold as little as a maximum of 12 cfs, where in our
21 report we suggested it was 16 cfs. Clearly, there needs to
22 be some improvement in that to take larger flows for the
23 spring and summer flows that are necessary in order to make
24 Mill Creek a viable habitat for waterfowl.
25 We further suggested that in addition to the perennial
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
860
1 flows that LADWP has proposed that there needs to be a
2 greater flow in the spring, summer and trying to reach 11 --
3 about 11.6 cfs during the fall period, which is trying to
4 mimic the fall flow in Mill Creek to provide as much
5 distributary habitat and as much spring flow in that region
6 during the fall period; and, finally, in relation to Mill
7 Creek we suggested that a number of distributaries, five,
8 could be reopened in Mill Creek to assist in forming some
9 shallow back water habitat in the bottomlands and in the
10 middle portions of Mill Creek.
11 The LADWP plan suggests that we should wait and see
12 how the stream recovers prior to opening some of those
13 distributaries. Actually, three of the five are fairly
14 simple to open and could be done immediately. Likewise, the
15 fifth one, the E Channel as described by Dr. Stine in the
16 appendix of the LADWP plan, could be reopened at this time
17 with an additional culvert under the road -- County Road
18 system. It would open up a much broader channel at the base
19 of the delta and enlarge the delta across two major
20 channels, which is fairly favorable in increasing the
21 quality of the riparian habitat in the Mill Creek bottoms.
22 In relation to the monitoring aspect, we recommended
23 that there be annual aerial photographs done and we suggest,
24 in fact, that it might be best to do two aerial annual
25 photographs, one done at peak flow and one done at the peak
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
861
1 timing of waterfowl migration in the fall, say sometime mid
2 October to early November. I believe that they knock down
3 that number. We suggest at least annually one time and two
4 would be better.
5 We, likewise, suggest that as a means to actually set
6 up an understanding for what is the regional waterfowl
7 response versus what is actually happening at Mono Lake that
8 in addition to taking fall population indices of the ducks
9 on Mono Lake, that you also count birds from aerial censuses
10 at Bridgeport and at Crowley because that will allow you a
11 ratio to look at: Are you actually increasing duck response
12 on Mono Lake? Or is it more that it's a relationship of low
13 or high duck population simply in the region? And so what
14 you should see is that if populations are increasing at Mono
15 Lake, then the ratio of birds at Mono comparing to
16 Bridgeport or Crowley should also raise, and we think that
17 that's an important contribution.
18 We are concerned that there is some long-term
19 monitoring evaluation in relation to potential invertebrate
20 prey. The LADWP plan does call for annual monitoring of the
21 shrimp. It does, however, back down on brine flies and we
22 suggest that monitoring the larvae and/or pupae of this
23 organism is extremely important in potential prey for these
24 birds.
25 If you look at a study by Boula and Jarvis, which was
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
862
1 published and I believe it's cited in our report, they did
2 research on northern shoveler food habits at Lake Abert,
3 which is a somewhat similar habitat type, and found in fact,
4 brine flies were present in food habitats of northern
5 shovelers. So it's clear that the shoveler will feed on
6 these organisms, and we believe that rather than sampling
7 one organism, the shrimp, and using that as a template to
8 describe how both organisms would respond, it's really most
9 viable to look at both organisms and track that out because
10 what we may very well see is we may very well see that given
11 recovery of restoration areas, given recovery of lake
12 levels, there may be a lag time in the way these
13 invertebrates respond and that may more dictate why ducks
14 respond to the lake.
15 If we do not start analyzing and evaluating in a --
16 MS. GOLDSMITH: Mr. Chairman, at this point I'd like
17 to object. Dr. Reid is going far beyond his written
18 testimony.
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Okay.
20 MR. DODGE: I disagree entirely. He's talking about
21 the reasons for his recommendation on monitoring brine fly,
22 which is part of his testimony.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Go ahead.
24 MS. GOLDSMITH: I defy Mr. Reid to point to his
25 written testimony and show me where it goes into these
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
863
1 specific reasons for the monitoring. I agree it does say
2 that the monitoring should be done.
3 MR. DODGE: He's just elaborating on his position,
4 Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I understand both of your concerns.
6 Perhaps you could refer to your testimony a little bit,
7 Dr. Reid.
8 DR. REID: Sure.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: It might help counsel keep track of
10 how this relates to your direct. It might help us all.
11 DR. REID: My written testimony says that, "I
12 emphasize that the potential prey of alkali flies and
13 brine" --
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: Excuse me, Dr. Reid. Could you give
15 me a page?
16 DR. REID: No, I don't have page numbers on this one.
17 It's the last page. It's where my signature is. It's the
18 page that starts, "The scientists presented a minimal level
19 of monitoring for the project." And it further states that,
20 "We believe that critical baseline information may have
21 already been lost because monitoring has not occurred. I
22 emphasize that the potential prey of alkali flies and brine
23 shrimp must be measured as a population index at least
24 annually." And that's what I refer to in my testimony in
25 relation to the monitoring and that's my point, that I
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
864
1 believe both species should be done on an annual basis.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: That's the extent of it.
3 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. You may proceed with
4 your testimony, Dr. Reid.
5 MS. SCOONOVER: Excuse me, Chairman Caffrey.
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, Ms. Scoonover.
7 MS. SCOONOVER: I also think it's important to point
8 out that Dr. Reid was one of the three authors of the
9 Waterfowl Plan that's been attached to the Department of
10 Water and Power's plan that did go into greater detail about
11 the necessity of monitoring. I think Dr. Reid's testimony
12 is entirely related to information that's already in the
13 record.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you for your
15 comment. It is now in the record.
16 Would you please proceed.
17 DR. REID: Sure. Just to continue on with the
18 monitoring aspects in relation to what I said directly in my
19 written testimony, we further -- I further felt that it
20 would be important that a trust be set up so that
21 independent scientists, not those that received direct
22 funding from LADWP, could conduct this work and go into some
23 explanation in terms of why you don't want an agency who may
24 be interested in a specific answer to hold dollars over the
25 head of a specific scientist. And that was my testimony.
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: That completes your direct, sir?
2 DR. REID: Yep.
3 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, thank you.
4 Mr. Dodge, do you wish to -- are we going to go
5 directly now to -- is it Mr. Shuford or --
6 MR. DODGE: Mr. Shuford I had planned to, yes.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right.
8 MR. DODGE: But I'll do it any way you want.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: No, that's fine. I just didn't --
10 there was a pause and I wasn't sure who was going to speak
11 next. I'm just trying to --
12 MR. DODGE: Neither is Mr. Shuford. We haven't
13 rehearsed this.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. This is more free form
15 than some of the other testimony, which is fine.
16 Go ahead, Mr. Shuford.
17 MR. SHUFORD: My name is David Shuford. I work for
18 Point Reyes Bird Observatory, which is a non-profit
19 organization dedicated to conducting ecological research and
20 providing a scientific basis for conservation of birds and
21 their habitats.
22 I've worked at Mono Lake for 14 years conducting
23 research and monitoring of the California gull population
24 and I've had the pleasure of testifying before the Board in
25 the water hearings regarding that issue.
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1 I also have extensive experience monitoring water
2 birds for the last 20 years and, in particular, shorebirds
3 based on, you know, a wide variety of methods from ground,
4 boat and aerial surveys. I'm quite familiar with techniques
5 for surveying and monitoring birds, the type that could be
6 used at Mono Lake for waterfowl.
7 One of my main comments about the Waterfowl Plan as
8 it's currently written is there aren't any really clear
9 criteria for measuring the effects of restoration, whether
10 these are effective; and I think if restoration is going to
11 proceed at Mono Lake and we are going to have an effective
12 plan we need some way to measure, whether it's objective or
13 subjective or otherwise, whether or not the actual plan and
14 the way it's carried out does restore waterfowl habitat and
15 waterfowl populations to Mono Lake.
16 In North America there's a plan called the "North
17 American Waterfowl Management Plan" that's sort of a
18 landmark effort to restore habitat for waterfowl continent
19 wide. And in that plan they do have objective criteria,
20 population criteria or habitat criteria for trying to figure
21 out if they are meeting their goals of waterfowl
22 restoration; and whether or not those exact criteria were to
23 apply to Mono Lake is uncertain, but it seems important that
24 the plan has some way of measuring whether the restoration
25 is effective or not.
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1 There are specific cases where I think the plan is
2 lacking. One Dr. Reid has already testified to. I think
3 it's highly important that the alkali fly populations be
4 monitored. There are only two major prey items at Mono Lake
5 and almost -- virtually all the birds there depend on both
6 of these species and there's reason to believe that the
7 alkali fly could be, you know, the more important of the two
8 prey items at Mono Lake. So I think it would be really
9 important if we did monitor that as well. They have very
10 different life histories. The alkali flies are found more
11 inshore, which would be a habitat where the waterfowl would
12 be more likely to be feeding.
13 Another issue that's been brought up is the GIS
14 mapping of wetland habitats around the lake, and this is not
15 in the current plan that was recommended by the waterfowl
16 scientist team. And the GIS mapping is currently the most
17 accurate and widely-used method for following habitat
18 changes, and Dr. Reid could testify extensively to this and
19 the use by his organization throughout California and the
20 west for mapping waterfowl habitat changes.
21 And the rest of my comments are largely based on the
22 monitoring efforts and the census scope and frequency that
23 seem important to have in place to come up with good data if
24 we are going to track the waterfowl populations and factors
25 that could affect the waterfowl and these trends.
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1 The current plan does not have in it annual surveys of
2 waterfowl. I think that's really crucial. There is a lot
3 of environmental variability in the Great Basin. We've
4 already seen some major changes at Mono Lake over a very
5 rapid period where we have not gathered data on the
6 waterfowl populations. So I think it's crucial we have a
7 continuous record of what's going on with waterfowl numbers.
8 Track record at Mono Lake is really clear on other research
9 that's monitored major populations of concern such as brine
10 shrimp or California gulls, et cetera. All these prior
11 efforts have been carried out on an annual basis.
12 And another point that Dr. Reid has already elaborated
13 on, that's the need for these surveys of waterfowl at both
14 Crowley Reservoir and Bridgeport Reservoir. And, again, the
15 major reason for doing that is so we have some comparative
16 measure. So if the populations were rising in all these
17 areas, we might assume that that's due to some outside
18 influence; but if waterfowl numbers decrease at Mono Lake
19 and are staying relatively stable at the other two sites, we
20 might assume from that that restoration efforts are being
21 effective. Without some comparative measure we're not going
22 to know. It would always be easy to say, but these
23 population changes we observe are because of other outside
24 influences.
25 I think the need for annual photography to document
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1 the habitat changes is also crucial, too. We've seen some
2 rapid changes in the last few years as the lake has risen.
3 If we're doing this on a less frequent basis, we're going to
4 miss a lot of these changes.
5 One other item that hasn't been touched on too much in
6 the current proceedings I think is the hypopycnal
7 environment. In the previous Water Board hearings there was
8 extensive discussion about hypopycnal environment and its
9 importance to waterfowl at Mono Lake, but in the Waterfowl
10 Restoration Plan there's really no mention of this feature
11 of the habitat and whether it should be followed or not.
12 Personally I don't know if it's feasible to monitor that in
13 an easy way, but I think it should be addressed in the
14 Waterfowl Management Plan. Those are my comments.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you, Mr. Shuford.
16 Mr. Dodge, are you with us and ready for
17 cross-examination?
18 MR. DODGE: Indeed, they are.
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right.
20 MR. DODGE: Vis-a-vis the preparation for today's
21 hearing I should tell the Board I got home yesterday early
22 in the afternoon and left a message for Mr. Shuford saying
23 that I would like him to summarize his testimony in about
24 five minutes tomorrow morning and he should call me if he
25 had any question or comment and I never heard from him. I
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1 just saw him here this morning.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: We appreciate the brevity,
3 gentlemen. That helps moves things long. We'll follow the
4 order that we have been following with cross-examination.
5 So we'll ask Ms. Goldsmith if she wishes to question
6 these witnesses?
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: Yes, if I might have a few moments.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, go ahead.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: Chairman Caffrey.
10 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, Ms. Scoonover.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: Perhaps now is an appropriate time to
12 inquire whether or not the People for the Preservation of
13 Mono Basin, the Bellomos, indeed, did submit written comment
14 or written question?
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you for reminding me. I
16 should have mentioned that earlier. We do have questions
17 submitted. I don't know if they're for every single panel,
18 but we do have some. We have anointed Mr. Johns to be the
19 questioner and he does have quite a list of questions.
20 I don't know if you have any for this panel. Do we,
21 Mr. Johns?
22 MR. JOHNS: Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: We do have some for this panel.
24 The short answer is she did submit her questions.
25 Ms. Goldsmith, are you ready?
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1 MS. GOLDSMITH: Almost.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Okay.
3 MR. JOHNS: Mr. Chairman, I might add that we also
4 have questions from Mr. Russi from the BLM who would like to
5 ask questions as well and he faxed those to us and
6 Mr. Canaday will ask those questions.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, Mr. Canaday will be
8 asking questions for Mr. Russi.
9 MR. DODGE: Will the identity of the questioner be
10 forthcoming to all of us?
11 MR. JOHNS: Very much so, yes.
12 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes.
13 MR. JOHNS: We remind the parties these are not our
14 questions. These are the parties' questions.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: That's a good question right there
16 and we'll make it clear that -- who they're asking the
17 question for so that we don't get confused as to which are
18 the staff's direct questions.
19 MR. DODGE: Okay.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Good morning, Ms. Goldsmith.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: Good morning. For the record, since I
23 know that Mr. Del Piero will be reading it, I want to extend
24 my sympathies to you, Mr. Del Piero, at home for a speedy
25 recovery.
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you. I know that that's what
2 he would say if he could.
3 ---oOo---
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER:
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: Now, Dr. Reid, you have described in
7 your testimony the process for preparing the consultants'
8 report, which is at Appendix I to the DWP Exhibit 20, the
9 Waterfowl Habitat Restoration Plan; is that correct?
10 DR. REID: In my written testimony here, right,
11 correct.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: Which you summarized for us today.
13 DR. REID: Right.
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: In preparing that report the
15 consultants were the contractors for DWP; is that right?
16 DR. REID: Absolutely, yes.
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: In pursuing that report did you
18 receive specific directions from DWP as to avenues which
19 should be pursued and avenues which should not be pursued?
20 DR. REID: In a broad sense they allowed us any
21 waterfowl related habitat to consider. They asked us not to
22 consider fisheries issues. They asked us to focus on the
23 waterfowl aspects.
24 MS. GOLDSMITH: And that, in fact, was consistent with
25 what they hired you to do, right?
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1 DR. REID: Yes, it was. And they further told us that
2 they would allow -- they would publish unedited our total
3 report, which they did in that appendix.
4 MS. GOLDSMITH: There was no editing?
5 DR. REID: In that appendix absolutely not.
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: You examined it and there was no --
7 DR. REID: Yes. I haven't find any.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: No redactions?
9 DR. REID: I haven't found any.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: Now, did they prohibit you from
11 talking to anybody in particular?
12 DR. REID: No, no, they did not prohibit us --
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: I'll just pursue this and if you have
14 other things to add, perhaps Mr. Dodge can do it on
15 redirect.
16 DR. REID: Sure.
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: Did they refuse any information that
18 you requested as consultants?
19 DR. REID: None that I can remember, no.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: Did they impose any restrictions on
21 publication?
22 DR. REID: No.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: Now, the Chair of your group was
24 Dr. Rod Drewien; is that right?
25 DR. REID: Yes, that's correct.
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1 MS. GOLDSMITH: And are you aware that Brian Tillemans
2 on DWP's staff had sent Dr. Drewien a memorandum in May of
3 1995 providing the names of researchers who were familiar
4 and had experience in the Mono Basin with various scientific
5 areas of inquiry?
6 DR. REID: I am aware that he sent that. I don't
7 remember the document. I'm not sure that I ever saw the
8 document itself. I'm aware that he sent that, yes.
9 MS. GOLDSMITH: And would you be surprised if Dr. John
10 Melack's name was within that list?
11 DR. REID: I can't say. I don't know the man's name.
12 I don't remember.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Would you be surprised if Dr. Joseph
14 Jehl's name was in that list?
15 DR. REID: No, I believe Dr. Jehl's name was in that
16 list.
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: However, the committee never contacted
18 Dr. Jehl, did it?
19 DR. REID: No, and, likewise, the other way as far as
20 I know. Dr. Jehl did contact Dr. Drewien at one time after
21 the document was complete.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: That was within the last month or so;
23 isn't that right?
24 DR. REID: I can't say the time table. It was after
25 the document was complete.
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1 MS. GOLDSMITH: Right. But the committee never sought
2 Dr. Jehl's input or information that he may have had on
3 waterfowl?
4 DR. REID: No. Both Dr. Drewien and I are aware of
5 Dr. Jehl's background and he does not have a strong
6 waterfowl background.
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: But he has been at Mono Lake for more
8 than ten years; isn't that correct?
9 DR. REID: Absolutely, absolutely, you bet.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: And are you fully aware of the tasks
11 that Dr. Jehl has been asked to pursue for DWP?
12 DR. REID: No, I'm not actually.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: So you really didn't know whether he
14 had or didn't have any pertinent information that might have
15 been of use to your committee at that time, did you?
16 DR. REID: Other than that we knew that there was
17 material in the EIR, which we cited quite a bit in our
18 report.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: But beyond that you really didn't know
20 the scope of any information he might have?
21 DR. REID: No, no.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: But you did consult with Mono Lake
23 Committee consultants; isn't that right?
24 DR. REID: Yes.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: In fact, they're the only ones you
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1 consulted with other than public officials and the Forest
2 Service?
3 DR. REID: No, that's not true. We consulted with a
4 number of people that were in the Basin that were former --
5 that were hunters that had hunted on the area and had been
6 aware of habitats around the lake.
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: And were any of those witnesses for
8 the Mono Lake Committee at the prior hearings?
9 DR. REID: You know, I wasn't at those hearings so I
10 can't tell you exactly. I don't know. They were cited in
11 the EIR.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: So, in any event, in your experience,
13 your own personal experience in working for DWP, there was
14 no institutional cleansing of data, was there?
15 DR. REID: I didn't feel there was. We were, we were,
16 asked to reduce the amount of monitoring we were asking from
17 our draft that was done at the TAG and, in fact, we did
18 and -- I disagreed with my co-authors, but we did reduce the
19 amount of aerial surveys of waterfowl from annually to
20 bi-annually. I disagreed with that, but I went along
21 because my two co-authors agreed in terms of trying to
22 reduce a cost that that might be a cost-saving event.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: That's interesting because it brings
24 up another question. I noticed in your testimony that when
25 you discussed the monitoring issue you continue -- in fact,
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1 generally when you referred to the differences you
2 continually used the pronoun "we." You said "we" recommend
3 aerial photographs annually.
4 So when you say "we," you're not speaking for the
5 other consultants. You're speaking for you and who else?
6 DR. REID: No, in that case I was. In talking with
7 Rod and Tom in the more recent past they agree that because
8 of the rapid change that we see in the lake level that an
9 annual survey is really probably required for waterfowl.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: But none of them is here as a witness
11 changing the opinion?
12 DR. REID: No, no, and as far as I know they won't be.
13 Rod is in the Chihuahuan highlands of Mexico right now
14 surveying cranes.
15 MS. GOLDSMITH: So the last word that we have on their
16 position is the scientists' report that was submitted as
17 Appendix A?
18 DR. REID: Absolutely, absolutely.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: I just derailed myself.
20 Now, in terms of the consultants' recommendations
21 contained in Exhibit I -- or Appendix I of Exhibit 20, your
22 testimony as stated at page nine is that, "Each of the
23 recommendations is feasible by engineering or legal means."
24 DR. REID: Uh-huh.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: And among those recommendations that
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1 are included -- by the way, "uh-huh" is a positive, right?
2 DR. REID: Well, I was going to start on that. What I
3 was referring to in my testimony was the specific
4 recommendations that we made in this document --
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: In Appendix I; is that right?
6 MR. DODGE: Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes.
8 MR. DODGE: Can I suggest that everyone be advised
9 that the witness should complete his answer and the witness
10 should not start his answer until the question's finished.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Please consider that an instruction
12 from your attorney, sir, and it's a good reminder.
13 DR. REID: Sure.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let the question be asked and then
15 give as succinct an answer as you can. It's for a number of
16 reasons. One of the very practical ones is that the court
17 stenographer can't take two paths of testimony at the same
18 time at least to start.
19 Mr. Dodge.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: Mr. Chair, I realize that works both
21 ways and I have a bad habit of interrupting. The latest one
22 I merely wanted to make sure that the reference in the
23 record was clear that you were referring to Appendix I. So
24 it's the recommendations in Appendix I that you're talking
25 about when you're referring to legal and --
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Goldsmith, I'm sorry to
2 interrupt you, but Mr. Dodge has risen and I think had a
3 question the same time you did.
4 MR. DODGE: If I didn't say so, what I meant to say,
5 also, was that the witness should be allowed to complete his
6 answer before a new question.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: As the tape went through I began to
8 understand the point of your concern, sir, and I share the
9 concern with regard to both the witness and the attorney.
10 So I think it was a timely raising of the concern.
11 So please proceed.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: My answer --
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: Can I ask what question you're
15 responding to at this point?
16 DR. REID: Why don't you ask the question again and
17 then I'll respond.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: We're on the last page of your
19 testimony. You state that, "Each of the recommendations is
20 feasible by engineering or legal means." You're referring
21 to the mitigation measures, including monitoring, that are
22 presented in Appendix I to Exhibit 20; is that right?
23 DR. REID: Yes, insofar as we have specific
24 recommendations in the text and then in conclusion. We also
25 have -- we also go through a number of potential mitigation
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 restoration activities that we do not consider viable. So
2 insomuch as there are potential restoration activities such
3 as trying to restore the northern lagoons, which we felt
4 were not feasible.
5 But if your question is -- if I understand your
6 question, do we cite in here in our conclusions -- do I
7 consider those all financially and legally viable, yes.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: My question was really a lot more
9 simple than that. My question was: In the last sentence --
10 or in the sentence I read you from the report where you say,
11 "Each of the recommendations is feasible by engineering or
12 legal means," you're talking about the recommendations that
13 are contained in Appendix I?
14 DR. REID: You didn't understand my answer.
15 MS. GOLDSMITH: Are there recommendations that are not
16 in Appendix I that you consider feasible or that you are
17 recommending?
18 DR. REID: The recommendations that we have in
19 Appendix I we consider feasible and legal.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: Are there recommendations in your
21 testimony that are not in Exhibit I that you consider
22 feasible by engineering or legal means?
23 DR. REID: Just the change that is in my testimony
24 which I acknowledge as a change in relation to -- this is on
25 the fourth to the last page beginning at "...waters at 6,392
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1 feet..."
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: Why don't you take a moment and write
3 some page numbers on the bottom of your copy because it
4 would help, I think.
5 DR. REID: I believe it's page six.
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay.
7 DR. REID: It says "...waters at 6,392 feet.."
8 Is that right?
9 MS. GOLDSMITH: Yes.
10 DR. REID: Okay. So this paragraph -- the next
11 paragraph down says, "One change in the scientists'
12 recommendations that I now recommend is that the County
13 Ponds project should be conditional on the ability to obtain
14 artesian flows. The U.S. Forest Service is currently
15 investigating the potential to drill the DeChambeau well to
16 locate artesian flow. Likewise, Ducks Unlimited has lined
17 the DeChambeau Ponds with Bentonite to eliminate any ground
18 seepage and loss of surface water. Lining of the County
19 Ponds should be built into the design. Such action will
20 increase the cost 60 to 70 K, but eliminating the pump
21 facility will reduce the proposal by a similar amount."
22 That's the change that I think is feasible and legal,
23 and that's the change outside of what was in the report.
24 MS. GOLDSMITH: And as I read that paragraph, you are
25 also differing from the Appendix I recommendations in that
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1 you limit it to a situation in which artesian flow can be
2 found?
3 DR. REID: Yes, that's true.
4 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. Now, in -- could you give us
5 your definition of "feasible"?
6 DR. REID: That you -- that they can be done within a
7 reasonable time frame and within reasonable -- within viable
8 engineering and biological means that exist.
9 MS. GOLDSMITH: And there was no consideration -- or
10 very little consideration of whether it was economically
11 cost-effective to provide a particular -- to implement a
12 particular recommendation; isn't that right?
13 DR. REID: I can't guarantee that -- we were told by
14 LADWP that we were not to deal with economic feasibility,
15 that that was their charge in their plan. We simply brought
16 forward the various projects, talked about very specific
17 costs that the projects would cost.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. And you did not include as an
19 element of your recommendations a consideration of cost?
20 DR. REID: No, we were told not to do that.
21 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
22 I'd like to talk a little bit about alkali flies. You
23 mentioned a report or work done by Boula and Jarvis --
24 DR. REID: Uh-huh.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: -- which found brine flies in the diet
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1 of the northern shoveler; is that right?
2 DR. REID: Correct.
3 MS. GOLDSMITH: Isn't it true that Boula and Jarvis'
4 work that you cited concluded that the northern shoveler is
5 an indiscriminate feeder that sieves the water at the
6 surface?
7 DR. REID: As I remember, that's what the report said.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: Do you disagree with that?
9 DR. REID: There are other studies which have found
10 that northern shovelers are a distinct carnivore. In Boula
11 and Jarvis they show that seeds made up, as I remember,
12 about 25 percent of the esophageal diet. That's far higher
13 than all the other studies would reveal; and if you relate
14 it to Mono Lake, I don't think you'd find seeds as a viable
15 component.
16 So I would say that they may be an indiscriminate
17 forager; but if the two dominant prey are, in fact, shrimp
18 and flies, then shrimp and flies is probably what should be
19 monitored.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: And do you agree with Boula and
21 Jarvis' description of how they feed, that is, they sieve
22 the water at the surface?
23 DR. REID: They actually normally feed at the surface
24 and at the shoreline. They do, however, dive on occasion.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: On occasion?
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1 DR. REID: Yeah.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: So if the brine shrimp pupae that are
3 being monitored are those that are attached to various --
4 DR. REID: The brine fly?
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: I'm sorry, brine fly, thank you.
6 The brine fly life stage that is being monitored is
7 that which is attached to submerged objects, that wouldn't
8 necessarily reflect the diet of brine flies that are
9 available to the shovelers; isn't that right?
10 DR. REID: It may not reflect what's available to the
11 diet, but it may serve as an indices to what could be
12 available to the birds.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Do you know of any data that reflects
14 a correlation between the abundance of submerged attached
15 brine fly pupae to the availability of brine fly at the
16 surface?
17 DR. REID: No, I'm not aware of any such correlation.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
19 Now, turning to the scrapes that you testified about,
20 you must be familiar, aren't you, with scrapes that have
21 been done elsewhere in the west?
22 DR. REID: Yes.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: In alkali environments?
24 DR. REID: Yes.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: One thing that I found curious. You
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1 recommend very shallow, two to fifteen centimeter scrapes.
2 Now, is that a typo or is that really the depth that you're
3 recommending?
4 DR. REID: No, that's the depth we're recommending.
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: So we're talking one inch to five
6 inches depth?
7 DR. REID: Yes. Very, very shallow.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: And how are these -- what's the aerial
9 extent of these scrapes that you're recommending?
10 DR. REID: They could be done from anywhere from a
11 hundred feet to probably ten times that.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: Are you envisioning that they would be
13 done by hand?
14 DR. REID: No, I'm envisioning they would be done by
15 relatively small mechanical mechanisms like a bobcat.
16 MS. GOLDSMITH: And did the committee of consultants
17 consider the feasibility of moving heavy equipment and
18 working in wetlands in making this recommendation?
19 DR. REID: Certainly all of us have had experience
20 working in wetland restoration activities. That's why we
21 were selected and that's a very common practice. You have
22 to get the equipment to the site.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: And that can involve a great deal of
24 logistical difficulty; isn't that true?
25 DR. REID: A great deal of logistical difficulty?
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1 MS. GOLDSMITH: Well, for example, let's pick Simons
2 Springs.
3 DR. REID: Uh-huh.
4 MS. GOLDSMITH: Moving a bobcat to Simons Springs
5 might be fairly difficult; wouldn't you say?
6 DR. REID: Again, fairly difficult? I think it's
7 feasible. Would it require pre-site visit to look at how
8 you move the material in? Absolutely, that's what we do on
9 a normal basis.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: And it's very sandy and shifting and
11 unstable soil between Simons Springs and the nearest road;
12 isn't that right?
13 DR. REID: Yes, that's true.
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: How long do you -- in your experience
15 do these scrapes last?
16 DR. REID: They're ephemeral in nature, especially as
17 we look -- we suggested in the scientists' report that if
18 one was to do this, that below where the lake level will
19 rise is where you want to try these so that they will serve
20 as an ephemeral habitat as the lake rises and it catches
21 both fresh water and later as the lake water advances.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: So what period of time do you envision
23 these scrapes as being functional?
24 DR. REID: Well, depending on how fast the lake rises
25 we consider probably five to ten years.
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1 MS. GOLDSMITH: So you think that you could go in one
2 time with a dozer, do a scrape and it would last five years
3 as a functional wetland?
4 DR. REID: Yeah, we've seen it before.
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: Did your committee look into at all
6 the feasibility of obtaining permits for this type of work?
7 DR. REID: No. What we said was that the permits
8 would have to be obtained. We have -- again, especially Tom
9 Ratcliff and myself have worked on hundreds of projects
10 where permits have to be obtained from various agencies.
11 MS. GOLDSMITH: Turning to your discussion at Mill
12 Creek. You testify -- and I didn't write down the page so
13 I'll have to search for it, also.
14 DR. REID: Page four?
15 MS. GOLDSMITH: I have it on page six, which you may
16 have as page four. I'm not sure why our pagination is
17 different.
18 DR. REID: I wrote mine in.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: So did I. I started at the front, you
20 started at the back. Maybe that's why. But it's the page
21 that starts at the top "...waters at 6,392 feet..."
22 DR. REID: Okay. That's my six, right.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: That's my six, too. Interesting.
24 You state that, "...current Mill Creek flows, even
25 when LADWP and U.S. Forest Service free up their water
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1 rights, are too low to provide important waterfowl habitat."
2 And I'd like some clarification on that sentence.
3 DR. REID: Where are you on this page?
4 MS. GOLDSMITH: It's the very bottom.
5 DR. REID: Okay.
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: It goes over to the next page.
7 They're too low to provide important waterfowl habitat.
8 You're not saying, are you, that no important benefits
9 could be achieved through rededication of the Forest Service
10 and DWP water rights?
11 DR. REID: No, absolutely not. As a matter of fact,
12 we state in the scientists' report that this is a great
13 first step that LADWP was willing to dedicate their water
14 right and we state that the Forest Service has said that
15 they would be willing to dedicate their water right and we
16 said these are great first steps in going forward.
17 My comment here is to state that without looking at
18 the Conway Ranch water rights, they're still gonna be too
19 low to provide some very important waterfowl habitat.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: So what you're saying is that
21 additional benefits might be achieved with additional water;
22 is that right?
23 DR. REID: No, I was not saying that. I was saying
24 that to actually create predictable viable habitat in the
25 fall and flushing conditions that will produce good quality
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1 riparian habitat you need more water.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: So you are saying that the dedication
3 of DWP's water rights and the Forest Service water rights
4 will not provide any substantial benefit to the birds?
5 DR. REID: No, I'm saying that it's a good first step
6 and that --
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: It will provide benefits?
8 DR. REID: It will provide benefits, yeah, absolutely.
9 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you. I couldn't tell from your
10 last answer if that was your position, but that additional
11 benefits that you consider important would need additional
12 water?
13 DR. REID: That's true.
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. Did the consultants consider
15 the degree to which waterfowl benefits could be obtained at
16 various levels of water dedication?
17 DR. REID: No, we didn't do a -- say a chart or
18 anything on "this is this benefit, this is this benefit."
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: So that there was no quantification or
20 analysis that even attempted to describe benefits that would
21 accrue with the DWP and Forest Service water rights alone?
22 DR. REID: I don't believe so.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. What is the basis, then, for
24 saying that the flows with DWP and Forest Service water
25 rights are too low to provide these additional benefits?
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1 DR. REID: The basis is looking at Peter Vorster's
2 water flows that -- and this is on page 96 of the
3 appendices. The page starts at, "In addition, LADWP and
4 other interested parties..."
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: That's your page 96?
6 DR. REID: Yeah. This may be repaginated as well. I
7 can read it to you. It states, "In addition, LADWP and
8 other interested parties should begin negotiations with
9 Conway Ranch and other entities to explore methods to obtain
10 water during the September-March period that currently flows
11 down Wilson Creek, contributing minimal benefits to
12 waterfowl habitat."
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: For the record, that's at page 98 of
14 Appendix I in what, I believe, is LADWP not 96.
15 I see that as the recommendation. What I'm trying to
16 get at is the basis for the conclusion that that is
17 necessary?
18 DR. REID: Looking at Peter Vorster's data on water,
19 it appears that even given LADWP's water right and the water
20 right of the Forest Service, which is junior, you will not
21 in many years have enough water to rewater the delta during
22 that critical time frame of waterfowl migration; and as is
23 recommended in the scientists' report, we were seeking to
24 replicate the natural flows of approximately 11.6 cfs during
25 that time period which would enhance the springs, enhance
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1 that fresh water lens, enhance the delta and provide the
2 kind of habitat that those birds would seek.
3 MS. GOLDSMITH: But you did no quantitative analysis
4 even on a subjective qualitative level is what I understand
5 you to have testified.
6 MR. DODGE: Excuse me, objection. I think that's an
7 unintelligible question.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let me ask the witness.
9 Do you understand the question?
10 DR. REID: No, I don't understand it.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Why don't you try it again,
12 Ms. Goldsmith.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: My understanding of your testimony is
14 that the scientists conducted no qualitative evaluation of
15 the level of benefits that would be provided by any
16 particular waterfowl; isn't that right?
17 DR. REID: No, I think I just said that what we sought
18 was to acquire a natural flow of 11.6. What we said was
19 that that would not be reached under many periods,
20 especially the critical time frame of the fall, given just
21 those water rights.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: And my question and this whole series
23 of questions goes to trying to elicit from you the basis on
24 which you made your determination that the full flow of 11.6
25 rather than something less was necessary?
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1 DR. REID: The reason that we sought the full flow was
2 that that full fall flow is really minimal down in that
3 region to create back waters, et cetera, which are a
4 required habitat for those birds. So that we sought a
5 mimicking of those natural flows so that you would have
6 those habitat types. That's the basis of why we sought
7 the -- that water level.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: And in making that conclusion or in
9 reaching that conclusion you relied heavily on Dr. Stine's
10 report; isn't that right?
11 DR. REID: Dr. Stine and Peter Vorster's reports, yes.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: And you have no independent expertise
13 in assessing whether or not those flows are required or some
14 other flows are required?
15 DR. REID: No, I'm basing my comments on those
16 reports; and if they're wrong, then what I'm saying may not
17 be right, absolutely.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: And, in fact, I'd like to read you a
19 sentence from page -- what I have as page 98 and I believe
20 it's your page 98 of Appendix I now, also.
21 Beginning about four lines down when the consultants
22 discuss reinstating base flows at Mill Creek and DWP's
23 dedication of its water to the Mill Creek corridor the
24 consultants state: "If this action is initiated, periodic
25 assessments should be conducted to determine the response of
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1 wetland and riparian habitats to rewatering."
2 So that the consultants recommend that some kind of
3 analysis be done to determine what level of benefits is
4 provided by various levels of water flow; isn't that right?
5 DR. REID: Yeah, that's true.
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay.
7 A little bit about Wilson Creek I'd like to ask you.
8 DR. REID: Uh-huh.
9 MS. GOLDSMITH: You testified at page eight, "Wilson
10 Creek's channel is currently so incised, narrow and steep
11 that minimal waterfowl habitat exists." And further on that
12 it "...has limited value to waterfowl and little potential
13 for restoration."
14 Is that a correct reading or summary of your testimony
15 about Wilson Creek?
16 DR. REID: Yes.
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: But it's not your testimony, is it,
18 that Wilson Creek is steep, narrow and incised its full
19 length, is it?
20 DR. REID: No, that's coming toward the delta at the
21 bottom level of Wilson Creek.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: It's just in that region that's
23 referred to as the "little Grand Canyon," correct?
24 DR. REID: And a little higher up.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: And are you aware that waterfowl
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1 currently use the mouth of Wilson Creek?
2 DR. REID: Yes, small numbers do; but I disagree with
3 the statement that LADWP had in their plan which stated that
4 it was a very viable habitat for waterfowl. That was not
5 something that the scientists suggested either in oral or
6 written statements to them, and it was the one thing that
7 was quite surprising seeing in our plan.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: But you're aware that some scientists
9 are of the opinion that it's currently the best habitat in
10 the whole part of the lakeshore?
11 DR. REID: No, I'm not aware that any scientists have
12 said it's the best habitat.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you. And in terms of evaluating
14 what Mill Creek might provide, nobody that you have talked
15 to has seen Mill Creek in a viable, semi-natural condition;
16 isn't that true?
17 DR. REID: There's no one alive that's seen that.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Right. So the evaluation of the
19 potential is based on an evaluation of a potential, not any
20 demonstrated habitat?
21 DR. REID: The evaluation is based on approximately
22 140 combined years of the three scientists and the two
23 scientists that we asked to look at our plan that are in our
24 Appendix A and B, and it's the recommendation by these
25 waterfowl scientists that this is probably the best habitat
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1 that can be restored.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: When you say 140 years, you mean 140
3 years combined experience?
4 DR. REID: Yes, of those five.
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you. I think we talked about
6 the annual aerial photographs. Your testimony says that
7 quote, "Annual aerial photos are critical to monitor
8 riparian, delta, and shoreline habitats."
9 Now, in the consultants' report the consultants
10 recommended aerial photographs every two years; isn't that
11 right?
12 DR. REID: Yes, I believe that's true.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: So -- and the other question I have
14 is: If we're talking about plants that aren't going to get
15 up and move anywhere, why is it critical? Why is
16 interpolation not a valuable cost-effective tool for
17 monitoring such riparian growth?
18 DR. REID: That's a good question. It's critical
19 because we see a rapid rise in the lake at this time and
20 there are massive changes going on in the formation of
21 lagoons and how various riparian areas might be flooded, et
22 cetera. So an annual survey is really recommended in terms
23 of trying to understand the changes that are occurring on
24 site.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: So you are concerned that areas that
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1 are riparian might be lost as the lake rises?
2 DR. REID: I'm concerned that there are changes in the
3 way waterfowl who are moving into a lake system would
4 respond to a habitat based on the structure of what's there.
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: You haven't convinced me, but I'm not
6 the one that you have to convince.
7 And the last series of questions I had for you, I
8 believe, is concerning your contention of lost baseline
9 data. You testified quote "We believe that critical
10 baseline data may have already been lost because monitoring
11 has not occurred." And is that "we" you or is it all three
12 consultants?
13 DR. REID: We had discussed, all three consultants,
14 that we were concerned that the lake was rising rapidly and
15 to our knowledge there was not a large number of baseline
16 data sets being collected as we had recommended.
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: You never asked DWP what monitoring
18 was being done, though, did you?
19 DR. REID: No, I'm not so sure that -- no, I can't say
20 that we never asked them. I think -- well, these comments
21 that were made were seen by LADWP and they didn't comment
22 that anything was wrong with them. So we assume, then,
23 that, in fact, there weren't monitoring aspects going on to
24 some of these levels.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: You're basically just not aware of any
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1 level of monitoring that DWP has been engaged in?
2 DR. REID: Oh, no, no, no, that's not true. We say in
3 the document we're aware of limnological aspects that LADWP
4 is doing and we point out that they have a series of
5 long-term data sets which are real critical in continuing
6 some of this monitoring, but that there were specific ones
7 such as the ones you're talking about, aerial photography,
8 aerial waterfowl census.
9 There was -- we discussed the aspect of time, budget,
10 behavior of waterfowl in various habitats in the Basin and
11 all of these we felt were extremely important to look at at
12 the beginning of the water flow because we were afraid if
13 you lost some of that baseline information, you might look
14 at it, say, five years into lake rising and not recognize
15 what some of the changes were.
16 MS. GOLDSMITH: But you cannot sit here and testify
17 that that data has not been collected; isn't that right?
18 DR. REID: Oh, that's true, absolutely.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
20 I have a question for you Dr. -- no, Mr. Shuford.
21 Hello again. It's been a long time.
22 MR. SHUFORD: Hello, Jan.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: Are you aware of any correlation
24 between food available as alkali fly drift and submerged
25 pupae?
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1 MR. SHUFORD: I can't speak to that question directly.
2 I think Dr. David Herbst would be the one that could answer
3 that question because he's the one that's been monitoring
4 alkali flies at the lake.
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: Did you ask Dr. Herbst that question?
6 MR. SHUFORD: Not that specific question. I mean,
7 there is definitely a correlation between, you know -- I
8 mean, there's an apparent correlation, you know, between how
9 much is out there and how much birds are eating; but I don't
10 know of any direct correlation myself. You'd have to ask
11 Dr. Herbst that.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: Were you present during the alkali fly
13 testimony that occurred at the State Board hearings on the
14 Mono Lake level?
15 MR. SHUFORD: Yes, I was.
16 MS. GOLDSMITH: And do you remember that there was --
17 that the modeling and the surveys showed very little impact
18 on flies at any of the lake levels that are being discussed?
19 MR. SHUFORD: How do you mean "impacts"?
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: An abundance of submerged flies.
21 MR. SHUFORD: Again, I'm not clear what you mean by
22 "impacts." Do you mean that they were depleted by birds or
23 what?
24 MS. GOLDSMITH: That their abundance was affected by
25 any of the lake levels that are being contemplated within
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1 the ranges of the Board's Order 1631.
2 MR. SHUFORD: Yes, I think there were -- there was
3 discussion, you know, of the various lake levels that would
4 be good for alkali flies and, as I remember, some of the
5 levels we were talking about would be more beneficial to the
6 alkali fly.
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: Do you recall any testimony of a
8 threat to alkali fly abundance from higher lake levels or
9 lake levels within the range of 6377 and 6392.5?
10 MR. SHUFORD: I don't remember any threats, per se,
11 no. Just that, you know, as the lake rose and salinity
12 decreased and there was more substrate submerged and the
13 flies could attach to that the habitat would be better.
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: And would you agree with the
15 characterization of northern shoveler as a bird that feeds
16 on drift primarily?
17 MR. SHUFORD: I would agree it feeds by sieving.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: What is "sieving," sir?
19 MR. SHUFORD: Well, northern shovelers have a bill
20 that's specifically adept to sieve largely zooplankton, you
21 know, through water. They have lamellae, which are sort of
22 equivalent to what whales have -- balen whales have so that
23 they sieve out things that come in through the water column.
24 I've seen them forage a lot. They will forage just swimming
25 along with their bills underwater but they'll dabble like
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 most ducks which, you know, upturn and go down for things
2 that are down below the surface.
3 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
4 I have no further questions -- do I?
5 MR. KAVOUNAS: (Shaking of the head.)
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you,
7 Ms. Goldsmith.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: And I didn't even have to ask for
9 extra time I'd like the record to show so when
10 Mr. Birmingham reads this he'll know.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I wasn't quite sure I caught all
12 that you said. You were within your time so --
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: By about 15 minutes. I can't
15 see -- we now have the staff keeping track of time. So I'm
16 relying on Mr. Johns to tell me what's going on. The only
17 way I can see what color the light is is to do this and I
18 see it's not on all. All right, I revealed one of our trade
19 secrets.
20 Why don't we -- before we get into further cross, if
21 there is any, why don't we just take about a 10-minute break
22 now, come back at 25 to and resume the cross. Thank you.
23 (Whereupon a recess was taken.)
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, we can resume. I'll go
25 down through the list just to see on the cross.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 I didn't see Mr. Gipsman this morning. Is he here?
2 No. He is representing the U.S. Forest Service. Is there
3 anybody here representing the U.S. Forest Service that
4 wishes to cross-examine? No one responding.
5 MS. SCOONOVER: Mr. Chairman.
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I'm sorry.
7 MS. SCOONOVER: They're out in the hallway.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, they are here?
9 MS. SCOONOVER: There are Forest Service
10 representatives here today, Mr. Porter.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, thank you.
12 MS. SCOONOVER: I don't know if they intend to
13 cross-examine.
14 MR. CANADAY: Mr. Chairman.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, Mr. Canaday.
16 MR. CANADAY: Shortly after the break started I did
17 ask the U.S. Forest Service representatives if they intended
18 to cross-examine and they said they did not.
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: They did not. All right, thank
20 you, sir.
21 Let's see, now I believe for Mr. Russi of the Bureau
22 of Land Management you have offered to ask his questions; is
23 that right, Mr. Canaday?
24 MR. CANADAY: Yes, sir.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Please proceed, sir.
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1 ---oOo---
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT (AS ASKED BY MR. CANADAY)
4 MR. CANADAY: This is for Dr. Reid.
5 Are you aware of any physical measurements -- and I
6 think Mr. Russi is referring to any vertical or horizontal
7 profile -- that were made of Mill Creek bottomlands or other
8 locations in the Mill Creek drainage?
9 DR. REID: Can you state the beginning part of that
10 question?
11 MR. CANADAY: Are you aware or did the scientists in
12 their report take any physical measurements of vertical or
13 horizontal profiles in the Mill Creek bottomlands or other
14 locations in the Mill Creek drainage?
15 DR. REID: The only aspect of a map or a physical
16 description was that found in Stine's appendix, which was in
17 our report, but there's no vertical profile that was taken
18 to my knowledge.
19 MR. CANADAY: And so to continue that, to your
20 knowledge there is no data that was collected on relative
21 increments of flow to determine what would be sufficient or
22 insufficient to provide habitat and waterfowl habitat in
23 Mill Creek?
24 DR. REID: We did not supply a diagram or chart to
25 that degree, but we did walk down on several occasions with
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1 Dr. Stine and one occasion with Mr. Vorster walk down the
2 profile of Mill Creek looking at various side channels and
3 potential distributary areas and talking about various flow
4 levels of where water would be under various flows.
5 We did not describe that in our documentation other
6 than it made -- in our description of where we thought
7 habitat would be, that's the basis of how we came up with
8 it.
9 MR. CANADAY: Do you feel it would be instructive to
10 conduct some of these cross-drainage measurements and flow
11 relationships as a good starting point to understand
12 efficient water use in Mill Creek and Wilson Creek?
13 DR. REID: Certainly and that would, of course, be
14 done if you were intending to go forward on restoration of
15 Mill Creek, that you would look at vertical profiles.
16 We were under a fairly sharp time line in order to get
17 this document done and there were certain aspects that we
18 didn't do because we needed to get this report to LADWP.
19 MR. CANADAY: In your testimony to quote it, and I
20 think it's on page nine, it says "The best use for waterfowl
21 of current Wilson Creek water is to return most of it to
22 Mill Creek as close to the headwaters as possible."
23 What do you mean by "most" of the current Wilson Creek
24 water?
25 DR. REID: Well, what we stated in the scientists'
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 report, that Wilson Creek should return to its historic
2 status as an ephemeral creek and we did not believe that you
3 should divert all water from Wilson Creek to Mill, but that
4 it should have a flow reflective of its historic basis.
5 MR. CANADAY: What physical measurements or other
6 assessments have you undertaken that brought you to the
7 conclusion that -- quoting part of your testimony --
8 "...minimal waterfowl habitat exists" on Wilson Creek?
9 DR. REID: The physical characteristics we observed
10 were in walking the length of Wilson Creek from below County
11 Ponds to the lake and from -- or below the County Road to
12 the lake and from the County Road upwards about 150 yards
13 and there were no physical characteristics that we measured,
14 per se, as looking at the incised characteristic of the
15 stream at that point and the lack of any true riparian
16 vegetation along that area.
17 MR. CANADAY: What time of the year was your survey
18 taken?
19 DR. REID: This was taken in summer/fall period.
20 MR. CANADAY: What is your specific knowledge of
21 the channel conditions on Wilson Creek between the point of
22 diversion near the Lundy Power Plant downstream to
23 Highway 167?
24 DR. REID: We walked that on one occasion -- the
25 scientists walked that on one occasion and simply a visual
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1 observation, no direct measurements of flow or anything like
2 that.
3 MR. CANADAY: That's all.
4 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. That completes the
5 questions for Mr. Russi as asked by Mr. Canaday.
6 We will now go to questions that have been submitted
7 in writing by Ms. Bellomo and Mr. Johns will ask those
8 questions. Mr. Johns.
9 MR. JOHNS: I think it best to draw a distinction
10 between my questions that I might ask later and
11 Ms. Bellomo's questions I maybe do them at the podium
12 perhaps, if that's all right.
13 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, if you wish to do so.
14 ---oOo---
15 CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY PEOPLE FOR MONO BASIN PRESERVATION - BELLOMOS
17 (AS ASKED BY MR. JOHNS):
18 MR. JOHNS: Good morning, Mr. Reid. These questions
19 are only for you, Dr. Reid, and I would like to re-emphasize
20 these are not my questions, but they were submitted to us by
21 Ms. Bellomo.
22 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: You did start the timer, did you
23 not, Mr. Johns?
24 MR. JOHNS: Yes, I did.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Keeping with your desire to be
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1 distinct from your own and to be fair.
2 MR. JOHNS: Yes, and this may take a while.
3 You indicate that you and the other waterfowl
4 scientists toured the basin on three different periods.
5 Can you tell us what your tours included?
6 DR. REID: Our tours included for the scientists one
7 tour in which we visited all the major wetland areas that
8 are identified under the Dombrowski map. We did not at that
9 time go on the northern side -- the northern lagoon area.
10 On a subsequent trip we visited all sites around the
11 lake, including the lagoons, and completed going around the
12 lake and all the sites identified under the Dombrowski map,
13 including all of the major tributary areas.
14 And then on a subsequent trip we visited the Lundy
15 site, followed down to the highway. Then viewed Conway
16 Ranch tangentially. We then moved down two areas along the
17 western side of the lake and concentrated in areas of the
18 DeChambeau Ranch, the Wilson Creek/Mill Creek complex, Black
19 Point.
20 We also had a tour as a group with some of the members
21 of LADWP and Dr. Stine was with us in a helicopter --
22 LADWP's helicopter in which we visually observed the
23 lake-fringing wetlands from the helicopter and basically
24 went around the whole lake.
25 MR. JOHNS: How many days total do you think this
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1 took?
2 DR. REID: We probably had 14 days at the Basin is my
3 guesstimate.
4 MR. JOHNS: Thank you. Did you do an inventory of
5 resources on the Thompson Meadows area and habitats?
6 DR. REID: No, we did not.
7 MR. JOHNS: Did you do an inventory of resources of
8 the Wilson Creek area?
9 DR. REID: From the County Road down to the lake, as I
10 mentioned earlier, we walked that and walked about a hundred
11 and fifty yards up from the County Road.
12 MR. JOHNS: Did you get a chance to look at the Mono
13 County Park area?
14 DR. REID: Yes.
15 MR. JOHNS: Did you do an inventory of habitat
16 resources in that area?
17 DR. REID: Again, we walked the area and walked all of
18 the lake shoreline of that area.
19 MR. JOHNS: Did you get a chance to take a tour of the
20 Mattly Meadow area?
21 DR. REID: Just seeing it tangentially.
22 MR. JOHNS: And did you do a resource and habitat
23 review of that area -- or survey of that area?
24 DR. REID: No.
25 MR. JOHNS: And you mentioned you did take a look at
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1 the Conway Ranch area, correct?
2 DR. REID: We looked at the Conway Ranch on a
3 tangential basis. We flew over all of the areas that you
4 mentioned in a helicopter.
5 MR. JOHNS: Okay. Did you do an inventory resources
6 value and habitat typing of that area of Conway Ranch?
7 DR. REID: No, other than what we saw from the
8 helicopter and looking at it tangentially.
9 MR. JOHNS: Okay. You indicate that the scientists
10 gave second priority to rewatering Mill Creek and its
11 distributaries. Throughout your testimony you predict
12 certain outcomes will take place when Mill Creek is
13 restored.
14 Do you have as your assumption how much water would be
15 required to restore all of Mill Creek?
16 DR. REID: Those elements are discussed in the
17 scientists' report and, again, they're based on flow data
18 that we received from both Peter Vorster and from Scott
19 Stine.
20 I would like to make one point, however, that the
21 questions stated that our second priority was Mill Creek.
22 In fact, our first priority was to raise the lake level to
23 6392, which was what the Board has already suggested. So,
24 you know, in terms of change for waterfowl habitat that was
25 our first priority.
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1 MR. JOHNS: Thank you. In response to a question that
2 Jim just asked for BLM you talked about restoring flows to
3 historic levels in Mill Creek; is that correct?
4 DR. REID: Yes.
5 MR. JOHNS: Would "historic levels" mean all the water
6 back into Mill Creek?
7 DR. REID: Well, it was historic flows that were
8 documented under Stine's appendix that we have in our
9 report.
10 MR. JOHNS: So "historic" meaning how historic?
11 DR. REID: Well, historic prior to modifications of
12 Mill Creek both in terms of diversions for grazing and for
13 modifications relative to So. Cal Edison's plan.
14 MR. JOHNS: So that would be all the water, then, back
15 to Mill Creek?
16 DR. REID: (Nodding of the head.)
17 MR. JOHNS: Okay, thank you. You predict that
18 rewatering Mill Creek will result in creation of wet
19 meadows. Can you explain exactly what you mean by "wet
20 meadows" and where they will be created?
21 DR. REID: Wet meadow habitat is herbaceous habitat
22 that would exist in the floodplain of the stream system
23 itself. It would be prevalent where high water came through
24 in the spring, the water came down and then growth of
25 herbaceous plants occurred in that floodplain. So it would
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1 be meadow habitat within the floodplain.
2 MR. JOHNS: Okay. How much acreage do you think would
3 be created?
4 DR. REID: I don't know. I'd have to go back and look
5 at that.
6 MR. JOHNS: How long -- if Mill Creek was rewatered,
7 how long do you estimate it would take for wet meadows to
8 form?
9 DR. REID: Well, wet meadows could form over the
10 course of several months depending on when the water came
11 on, then allowing the water to recede somewhat so that
12 grasses could -- and sedges could germinate. There could be
13 some meadow habitat beginning to form in as short as a few
14 months. In an annual cycle one would expect meadows to be
15 present.
16 MR. JOHNS: To be fair, let me drop down to some other
17 questions here and I'll come back to this in a minute, but
18 the questions specifically relate to the soil types in this
19 area.
20 Would you consider the Mill Creek area particularly
21 between Cemetery Road and Mono Lake to be rather rocky?
22 DR. REID: Yeah, it's somewhat rocky, sure.
23 MR. JOHNS: Gravelly type or cobbley do you think?
24 DR. REID: I don't know. I'd have to re-look at it.
25 MR. JOHNS: Do you believe that a change in soil type
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1 in that area would be necessary in order for meadows or
2 marshes to form?
3 DR. REID: No, I believe that you can have marshes and
4 meadow habitat even under current situations. As you get
5 heavy flows in the spring and summer period, you're going to
6 get deposition of soils which will make quality meadows and
7 larger meadow habitats more prevalent; but even under
8 existing conditions you'll get grass growth in those
9 regions.
10 MR. JOHNS: To get back to the area that you would
11 envision would be a productive waterfowl habitat area, how
12 long do you think it would take for that soil transformation
13 to take place?
14 DR. REID: Could you repeat the question again?
15 MR. JOHNS: How long do you think it would take the
16 soil transformation process to take place to get these
17 meadows or wet meadow areas or marshes to reform to be what
18 you would consider to be highly productive waterfowl areas
19 that you would see at an advanced stage?
20 DR. REID: Highly productive waterfowl areas? What I
21 would expect to see in these meadow-type habitats is that
22 they're back water areas and areas which serve as resting
23 and foraging areas for species like mallards, some
24 shovelers, et cetera, and I would estimate that it's going
25 to take several years to be in a stage that you'd call a
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1 climax meadow; but you're going to see immediate response,
2 as I mentioned, that may only take a couple months.
3 MR. JOHNS: Thank you. You indicate that the
4 DeChambeau Ponds and the County Ponds and the Black Point
5 Complex offers opportunities to develop shallow seasonal
6 wetlands. Can you please describe these and what do you
7 mean by "seasonal"?
8 DR. REID: "Seasonal wetlands" are those that may dry
9 up over the course of an annual period and that drying is a
10 very important process in how the long-term productivity of
11 those systems exist so that drying causes the release of
12 nutrients, new germination of vegetation, et cetera.
13 So the DeChambeau Complex, which is five ponds and a
14 meadow system, has in its management regime by the U.S.
15 Forest Service the ability to hold water some years in each
16 individual pond and the ability to let it dry in others.
17 The suggestion we had for the County Ponds was that
18 you could take the existing oval area and basically make it
19 two ponds and manage it in a similar fashion to County
20 Ponds. The Black Point scrape and the fifth pond at
21 DeChambeau are judged as seasonal in that they will take the
22 heavy flows in the spring and summer period and then dry up,
23 but during the course of that period they will be fairly
24 productive and then have vegetation in them as the area
25 dries.
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1 MR. JOHNS: Thank you. You mentioned artesian flows.
2 Do the three scientists advocate drilling at DeChambeau
3 branch to try to find artesian flows?
4 DR. REID: Yes, all three of us recommended that and
5 the U.S. Forest Service has suggested that they would search
6 funds out to try and attempt to do that.
7 MR. JOHNS: Have you performed any sort of analysis of
8 what affect, if any, drilling in other artesian wells would
9 have on existing artesian wells or local ground water?
10 DR. REID: No, absolutely not.
11 MR. JOHNS: Have you performed any analysis on what
12 affect an artesian well would have on lake-fringing wetlands
13 below the DeChambeau Ponds?
14 DR. REID: Below the DeChambeau Ponds, no.
15 MR. JOHNS: Is it possible that such a well could have
16 an adverse affect on the lake-fringing wetlands area?
17 DR. REID: We had our engineering staff look into the
18 potential of just such that situation and they deemed that
19 it was very unlikely that there would be a negative impact.
20 MR. JOHNS: You indicate that the County Ponds project
21 should be conditioned on the ability to obtain artesian
22 flows.
23 DR. REID: And that's -- my testimony differs from
24 what we had in our report.
25 MR. JOHNS: So you recognize the ability to get
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1 artesian flow may not occur?
2 DR. REID: Correct.
3 MR. JOHNS: Why should the County Ponds project be
4 conditioned on the obtaining of artesian flows?
5 DR. REID: Because of the high cost potentially
6 associated with a second well, second pump and the long-term
7 maintenance that that might involve.
8 MR. JOHNS: Were you personally involved in DeChambeau
9 restoration project?
10 DR. REID: I was.
11 MR. JOHNS: And what role did you play?
12 DR. REID: I was a biological supervisor for the
13 project.
14 MR. JOHNS: Does Ducks Unlimited feel or do you --
15 pardon me. Do you feel that this project was a success?
16 DR. REID: The project is not completed. We ran into
17 a situation that we were very surprised at in that the water
18 would percolate down at a certain level. You could fill
19 ponds one and two and then as you went to fill pond three,
20 the water would stay at a certain level even though you
21 continued to introduce water into the site and then at a
22 certain point all the water would drop out; and this was a
23 very curious condition and one that we had not encountered
24 over several hundred projects in the west.
25 Our engineers who had done previous soil
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 investigations were confused in that this was good alluvium
2 soil. They had done solid soil tests on it and rather
3 suggested that the site probably sits on a perched water
4 table and that that was going to be problematic in terms of
5 holding water without a lot more water entering into the
6 system.
7 The options we had, which we always knew we had, was
8 to Bentonite or use an alluvium to seal the pond bottoms,
9 and that is what we have been doing this fall and winter.
10 We have completed pond two, which we used a water-soluble
11 solution while it was flooded to seal the pond bottom. We
12 have sealed pond three with alluvium and that appears to be
13 holding very well. We've completed about 60 to 75 percent
14 of pond four. That's the last remaining part of the project
15 that we have not completed and we anticipate doing that this
16 spring. Because we ran into problems with the
17 December/January storms we took our operator off the site.
18 MR. JOHNS: Okay, thank you. Are you aware of
19 concerns that have been expressed that if the County Ponds
20 are sealed with Bentonite and fed exclusively from well
21 water, that there would be a problem of buildup of natural
22 toxins in the water in the ponds?
23 DR. REID: No, I'm not aware of that. In fact, we had
24 done quite a bit of pre-evaluation of the water, both in the
25 well water and in the site that has the hot water coming
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 out, because we were concerned for that very fact, that we
2 did not want to produce a project that was going to cause
3 any problems with heavy metals or any other potential
4 contaminant.
5 There is fairly high levels of Boron in the hot water
6 source. However, with the mixture of water from the well
7 and the small amount of water that's entering from the hot
8 water, the Boron levels are not a problem at all
9 biologically.
10 MR. JOHNS: Okay. U.S. Forest Service surveys
11 indicate that 1996 was an excellent year for breeding
12 pintail ducks and diving ducks and that restoration efforts
13 are critical when populations are high.
14 Does it disturb you that this year the DeChambeau
15 Ponds did not provide significant waterfowl habitat for
16 ducks?
17 DR. REID: Let me correct you. It's the U.S. Fish and
18 Wildlife Service that did the surveys, not the Forest
19 Service.
20 MR. JOHNS: Thank you.
21 DR. REID: Yes, absolutely. We would have liked to
22 have the project totally on line to serve as quality fresh
23 water habitat.
24 MR. JOHNS: Has this been a problem in DeChambeau
25 Ponds the last several years?
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1 DR. REID: We've been working on the project. As I
2 said, we're not completed with the project because the
3 project hasn't had the Bentonite totally on it.
4 MR. JOHNS: Does it disturb you that it hasn't
5 happened for the last several years?
6 MR. DODGE: Objection, unintelligible.
7 MR. JOHNS: Does it disturb you that water habitat on
8 the DeChambeau Ponds has not occurred over the last several
9 years?
10 DR. REID: In that when we entered the site there was
11 high degradation of the levies and basically looking at it
12 from an engineering standpoint, no site on there would hold
13 water probably three years after entering the site. We
14 viewed that anything we did there was going to be positive
15 and, in fact, ponds one and two did hold water during that
16 time period which they probably would not have had we not
17 entered the site.
18 MR. JOHNS: You refer to when the U.S. Fish and
19 Wildlife Service frees up its water right on page six. Has
20 anyone at Fish and Wildlife Service told you they intend to
21 give up their water rights at Mill Creek?
22 DR. REID: That is an error in my abbreviations. It
23 should be U.S. Forest Service, not USFWS. So they asked the
24 question correctly. It was based on an inaccurate -- it's
25 U.S. Forest Service.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. JOHNS: Got it, okay.
2 DR. REID: So can you state the question again?
3 MR. JOHNS: Okay. You refer to that when the U.S.
4 Forest Service frees up its water right in your testimony,
5 has anyone at the Forest Service told you that they intend
6 to give up their water right on Mill Creek?
7 DR. REID: No one has told me that they intend to give
8 up the water right. I have been told that they certainly
9 would consider it, and especially as it is in consideration
10 for good quality habitat restoration that's what they would
11 consider releasing the water right for.
12 MR. JOHNS: Okay. Do you recall who told you this and
13 when?
14 DR. REID: I don't recall when.
15 MR. JOHNS: Okay. Are you aware of the procedures
16 that might be necessary for the Forest Service to give up
17 their water rights?
18 DR. REID: Yes, I am.
19 MR. JOHNS: Okay. You state that the Conway Ranch
20 water rights are critical to the long-term recovery of Mill
21 Creek. Are you referring to both seasonal irrigation rights
22 or winter water or both?
23 DR. REID: Certainly winter water and non-irrigation
24 water, but I think there needs to be a discussion in
25 relation to the important high spring and summer flows to
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 look at the irrigation period as well.
2 Let me go back to your last question because I
3 remember that in a discussion with Tom Ratcliff, who is one
4 of the scientists and who is the chief biologist for the
5 Modoc Forest, Tom discussed a fact that it was very feasible
6 for the Forest Service to relinquish its water right given
7 biologic rationale.
8 MR. JOHNS: Thank you. This question has been asked a
9 couple times, but I'll ask it one more time here.
10 Are you proposing that no Mill Creek water would flow
11 under the Conway Ranch from the powerhouse tailrace at any
12 time, winter or summer?
13 DR. REID: Let me state that, as Dr. Stine has put in
14 his written testimony, much of the Conway is actually
15 watered from Virginia Creek, and to my knowledge the other
16 portions of the Conway would not then receive water from
17 Mill Creek in the proposal.
18 MR. JOHNS: So the answer to the question would be
19 "yes"? No Mill Creek water would be used?
20 DR. REID: The answer would be yes/no.
21 MR. JOHNS: I got it. You refer to the creation of
22 Mill Creek water courses with back waters in the bottomlands
23 if I got your testimony correct.
24 Approximately what location are you talking about and
25 do you have acreage estimates?
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1 DR. REID: The approximate locations are on the maps
2 that are listed in the appendices by Dr. Stine. These are
3 the potential back waters that we certainly saw. There are
4 other back waters in the delta area which would be created.
5 We did not list acreages in the document.
6 MR. JOHNS: Okay. What evidence do you have that back
7 waters existed historically in the past?
8 DR. REID: Based on the written material by Dr. Stine
9 in relation to both bottomland areas and back waters.
10 MR. JOHNS: And how long do you think it would take to
11 create these back water areas?
12 DR. REID: Well, back water areas will happen very
13 fast when you have enough water in slack water. Riparian
14 habitat will take longer.
15 MR. JOHNS: How much longer do you think?
16 DR. REID: Well, to acquire viable riparian habitat
17 it's going to be over the course of several years.
18 MR. JOHNS: Why did the scientists conclude that water
19 needed to enter Mill Creek should occur as high up as
20 possible?
21 DR. REID: We were referring to areas at the return
22 ditch so that as great a length of Mill Creek could be
23 rewatered for viable riparian and back water habitat and
24 that there would be minimal loss then of water to other
25 purposes such as irrigation, for grazing, et cetera. We
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 felt that the water would be better served for habitat in
2 the Mill Creek area.
3 MR. JOHNS: So you're looking principally at this
4 riparian habitat along the corridor and river itself in the
5 upper areas of Mill Creek?
6 DR. REID: Why we're putting in the top level?
7 MR. JOHNS: Right.
8 DR. REID: Well, that and to establish flows that --
9 the greatest amount of flow that you can within the stream
10 system both in repairing sediment that has been washed away
11 and in creating then flows that will reestablish springs in
12 the hypopycnal area at the lower regions.
13 We looked at -- and it's in the document from the
14 scientists' report -- alternative to take it down at a lower
15 level and we felt that there would be loss of water if that
16 was the strategy. So that the full extent of the stream
17 would be best in terms of putting water at the highest end.
18 MR. JOHNS: So would it be fair to say that your
19 concerns are principally waterfowl habitat issues or the
20 recovery of the stream itself?
21 DR. REID: They're not mutually exclusive. To have a
22 viable functioning stream, you will then produce the complex
23 of habitats which are critical for waterfowl in the riparian
24 zone, in the delta, in the meadows, in the back water, in
25 that hypopycnal fresh water zone and in the springs and it
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 is that complex that is really critical.
2 I think -- let me state that I think there's a
3 misconception here that one habitat type is missing in this
4 system and, in fact, what's missing is the juxtaposition of
5 habitats in locations that they actually serve to
6 accomplish.
7 MR. JOHNS: Okay, thank you. You say that the
8 restoration of Mill Creek would provide far better waterfowl
9 habitat than Wilson Creek at its mouth.
10 How long will it take to create this superior habitat?
11 DR. REID: Well, that's a good question. How long
12 will it take for Mill Creek to become superior to Wilson
13 Creek? My feeling is that if you are able to supply good
14 flows in the spring and summer period and replicate a flow
15 of, let's say, 11 cfs in the fall, that in that first year
16 you'll have far better habitat in Mill Creek than currently
17 exists at Wilson.
18 MR. JOHNS: And how much acreage do you think would
19 take place -- would be created in that first year?
20 DR. REID: I don't think we listed the acreage.
21 MR. JOHNS: So it's your testimony, then, within the
22 first year the quality of habitat on Mill Creek would be
23 better than the current habitat quality on Wilson Creek?
24 DR. REID: Yes, it is, given those flow levels.
25 MR. JOHNS: You refer to a mix of habitats that you
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 forecast would be developed in Mill Creek if it's restored.
2 Describe the plants and the types of mixed habitats
3 you expect would reestablish.
4 DR. REID: I'm going to find the place here in my
5 testimony which talks about that.
6 MR. JOHNS: Page eight.
7 DR. REID: So it refers to both the channels, et
8 cetera. Well, what I would envision you would see in the
9 length of the stream is a series of riparian habitats coming
10 down the stream which would be dominated by cottonwood and
11 willow. In association to those you would have meadow
12 habitats which would be dominated by grasses and sedges.
13 There is the potential to also have some water crest in some
14 of the spring-related areas along the side of the stream.
15 As you move down the stream into some more of the back
16 water habitat, I would suggest that you'll have slightly
17 more diverse grass and sedge habitats and then -- but there
18 will also be open water habitats in those areas and then as
19 you move to the delta itself, it will be more open water
20 habitat leading into the lake itself.
21 MR. JOHNS: This next question I think you've already
22 answered. You forecast that an expanded lake-fringing
23 wetland shoreline will be available. Can you explain how
24 rewatering Mill Creek will create this?
25 DR. REID: I said these conditions are essential to
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1 provide deltaic riparian and lake-fringing habitat.
2 MR. JOHNS: Page eight, line 26. Should be towards
3 the bottom.
4 DR. REID: So this is -- it's the last sentence there,
5 "A rapid response by some birds is expected..." Is that
6 where you're seeing this?
7 MR. JOHNS: I don't have the testimony in front of me,
8 but I believe so.
9 DR. REID: Let me just read this so I know what I'm
10 saying.
11 It's referring to expanded lake-fringing wetland
12 habitat along the shoreline, and that is as new flows are
13 established you have a much broader area in which the delta
14 exists; and it is not only the delta habitat itself, but the
15 expanded hypopycnal region within that area. So it's
16 expanded lake-fringing wetland shoreline, which is both a
17 combination of the delta and hypopycnal area.
18 MR. JOHNS: So these are basically functions of the
19 volume of water that would be put into Mill Creek?
20 DR. REID: The volume of water then impacting the
21 existing habitat.
22 MR. JOHNS: As part of developing the scientists'
23 proposal to rewater Mill Creek did you investigate what
24 adverse environmental impacts might result if your proposal
25 was implemented?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 I'm going to list several categories here. Did you
2 consider the adverse effects that would result by LADWP
3 ceasing irrigation with this Mill Creek water?
4 DR. REID: Ceasing irrigation?
5 MR. JOHNS: Yes.
6 DR. REID: For Thompson and the meadow habitat or just
7 general irrigation?
8 MR. JOHNS: Just general irrigation. We'll get to the
9 others in a second.
10 DR. REID: No, we did not comment on that.
11 MR. JOHNS: Did you consider the adverse effects of
12 putting all the Wilson Creek flow back into Mill Creek?
13 DR. REID: Absolutely. But, again, all of our
14 considerations are relative to waterfowl habitat. That was
15 our charge in this document. We were not preparing an EIR.
16 We were preparing comments on how to produce the best
17 quality waterfowl habitat in the Mono Basin and we did look
18 at -- and I think it states in our document that -- this is
19 on page 99 of the appendices. "The best ecological use of
20 current Wilson Creek water is to return most of it to Mill
21 Creek as close to the headwaters as possible."
22 So we obviously considered what the impact would be of
23 taking it away and its best ecological use we felt was Mill
24 Creek.
25 MR. JOHNS: So you looked at the adverse effects that
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1 would occur to Mattly Meadow as an example of an adverse
2 effect that might occur?
3 DR. REID: We didn't look directly at Mattly Meadow.
4 We looked at the complex of habitats that existed and felt
5 that the loss of habitat in any other area where water might
6 be diverted from was not a consequence for waterfowl as
7 compared to what we could produce at Mill Creek.
8 MR. JOHNS: Do you believe that the waterfowl habitat
9 that's provided by Wilson Creek currently is useful
10 waterfowl habitat?
11 DR. REID: Again, that relates to another question I
12 was asked earlier. There is some waterfowl use of the delta
13 at Wilson Creek. However, if you restore viable flows on
14 Mill Creek, you'll have vastly superior habitat in that
15 complex.
16 MR. JOHNS: Are you aware of Ducks Unlimited being
17 involved in a project where wetlands were taken away to
18 create other wetlands at another location?
19 DR. REID: Yes, I'm aware of a project in Nevada
20 called Railroad Valley where the historic stream had been
21 diverted to irrigate pasture land. The area was purchased
22 by the Bureau of Land Management and the Bureau of Land
23 Management asked Ducks Unlimited to work with it to restore
24 the historic wetlands that existed in the Railroad Valley.
25 In order to do that we had to restructure the historic
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 flows out of an irrigated meadow back into the historic
2 seasonal wetlands. So the meadow was no longer irrigated
3 after our project.
4 MR. JOHNS: And the meadow provided the waterfowl
5 habitat?
6 DR. REID: Very minor waterfowl habitat. There were a
7 few geese there.
8 MR. JOHNS: Thank you. I think this last question's
9 already been answered. Thank you very much.
10 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, that completes the
11 questioning for Ms. Bellomo by Mr. Johns.
12 Is Mr. Haselton here for Arcularius Ranch?
13 Dr. Ridenhour, do you wish to ask questions?
14 DR. RIDENHOUR: No.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Roos-Collins, do you have
16 questions.
17 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: No questions, Mr. Chairman.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, sir.
19 Ms. Cahill --
20 MS. CAHILL: Yes, thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: -- for the Department of Fish and
22 Game. Good morning.
23 MS. CAHILL: Good morning, Members of the Board and
24 Dr. Reid and Mr. Shuford. Almost all of these questions are
25 for Dr. Reid. So, Mr. Shuford, you can mostly relax.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 ---oOo---
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME:
4 MS. CAHILL: Dr. Reid, would you expect restoration
5 activities in the Mono Basin to benefit waterfowl?
6 DR. REID: Yes, I think we've documented in our
7 scientists' report that we expect there to be increased
8 usage by waterfowl in the Mono Basin.
9 MS. CAHILL: Could you explain somewhat the
10 relationship between Mono Basin restoration activities and
11 conditions in the flyway generally?
12 DR. REID: Certainly. We are currently in a wet cycle
13 within most of North America, but especially the Pacific
14 Flyway. There have been restored populations of birds in
15 the prairies of Canada, both because of climatic conditions,
16 but also because of extensive efforts to restore grassland
17 habitat.
18 For example, in Alberta the last three years there
19 have been projects to restore upwards of more than 200,000
20 acres of grassland and wetland habitat; and as you come down
21 the migration corridor there are countless examples in
22 Washington and Oregon, the Snake River, in Utah along the
23 Great Salt Lake, in Northern California the Klamath Basin,
24 in projects that are currently undergoing in Nevada. In a
25 number of projects in the Central Valley of California all
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1 of these set to restore viable linkages for these migratory
2 birds.
3 Mono Basin has -- is in a situation -- which I
4 testified in 1993 to the Board is in a situation where it
5 right now may be part of a break of a chain in terms of the
6 migration corridor.
7 MS. CAHILL: So you would consider it to be a
8 potentially key link?
9 DR. REID: Yeah. As water levels rise and as
10 waterfowl habitats could be restored, it's going to be a
11 very important link. This next year is going to be a real
12 important time because right now we have very, very wet
13 conditions in Nevada and Nevada is predicting some of the
14 best breeding habitat that they've had in several years.
15 Likewise, the prairies of southeast Alberta and
16 southwest Saskatchewan have far more snow on them than
17 they've had for several years. So for the true prairie
18 species of pintail or shovelers, et cetera, this will be a
19 very critical spring coming up.
20 MS. CAHILL: Thank you. So it would be possible to
21 see increased numbers of birds in the Mono Basin in response
22 to habitat improvement during this time of increased numbers
23 in the flyway?
24 DR. REID: This is -- during increased populations
25 within the continent this is when we tend to see young birds
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1 seeking out new areas. So to have restoration occurring now
2 is very critical because this is when birds are going to
3 move into areas and establish long-term traditions for
4 migration.
5 MS. CAHILL: Thank you. In the scientists' plan you
6 discuss the fact that there is no single form of habitat
7 that supplies all the needs of waterfowl, and you've just
8 now told us that there's a whole complex of habitat types
9 that are required; is that right?
10 DR. REID: That's correct.
11 MS. CAHILL: Is there -- is it true to say that the
12 minimal acreage of fresh and brackish open water wetlands is
13 one of the key types of habitat that is limiting in the
14 Basin at this time?
15 DR. REID: That's true.
16 MS. CAHILL: And so would -- do you see that in your
17 plan that would be one of the key types of habitat that
18 you'd need to recover?
19 DR. REID: Absolutely. That's why we think that the
20 burn schedule in a mosaic on the eastern side of the
21 lakeshore is extremely important, because that opens up
22 areas that are typically spring fed; but because fire has
23 been suppressed in this region for a long time period you
24 don't have those open areas that waterfowl will move into
25 readily, and that fire schedule and fire scenario is an
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 important one in establishing those kinds of habitats on the
2 east side.
3 On the west side, the DeChambeau County Ponds Complex
4 and the Black Point scrape, serve as a place for open water
5 habitat, fresh water habitat that the birds can move from
6 lakeshore, the lake environment, over to those sites to
7 bathe, to get a drink and then move back to the lake and
8 forage.
9 MS. CAHILL: In the scientists' plan on page 101 there
10 was a monitoring program that indicated several factors to
11 be monitored, and the first one listed is acres of wetland
12 habitats.
13 Do you believe it is important to monitor acres of
14 wetland habitats?
15 DR. REID: I think because you have such a dynamic
16 changing system going out there that this is an important
17 aspect to monitor. Whether it alone will allow you to judge
18 success I'm not going to argue, because I don't think alone
19 it's going to give you the kind of information you need; but
20 in conjunction with other factors which we list here I think
21 it's an important variable to look at.
22 MS. CAHILL: Would it be helpful to have an acreage
23 goal so that when that monitoring is done you can determine
24 whether or not you are achieving the increase in habitat
25 that you're looking for?
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1 DR. REID: The challenge with having an acreage goal
2 is you can be comparing apples and oranges, and this is a
3 fear that the scientists had in looking at goals and
4 objectives for this very aspect; and we were concerned that
5 one could look at existing vegetation on the east side of
6 the lake and say, "Well, we already have more wetland acres
7 than we need." And, in fact, that was not viable waterfowl
8 habitat even though in the jurisdictional wetland
9 description you might count that as wetland habitat.
10 In fact, what we felt was a better means to look at a
11 success in relation to these wetland habitats was to
12 describe the various restoration proposals we had and then
13 one could look at within system successes. So one could
14 look at the Mill Creek bottoms and look at changes in the
15 Mill Creek bottoms and look at changes there across time, or
16 one could look at the Simons Springs area, look at impact of
17 burn by the amount of the acreage of open area, the amount
18 of spring open area and that would be a means of measuring
19 success; but we felt that total acreage was not a value that
20 would be meaningful in terms of judging success in the
21 restoration.
22 MS. CAHILL: Let's take as an example the burns. The
23 scientists recommend burning approximately a thousand acres;
24 is that right?
25 DR. REID: Correct.
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1 MS. CAHILL: And with a burning of a thousand acres
2 approximately how many acres of open water habitat would you
3 expect to be created?
4 DR. REID: What we suggested there was it was a mosaic
5 burn so that you were burning 200 to 400 acres on an annual
6 basis and it was a patchwork of burns trying to replicate
7 what might have happened if you had -- lightening strikes,
8 burned an area, it went out on its own. A year or two goes,
9 another lightening strike hits another area. That way you
10 have a heterogeneic pattern out on the landscape so you have
11 some open areas and some closed areas.
12 MS. CAHILL: And how do you measure success, then? Is
13 the success simply that it has burned or is it only success
14 if it burns and creates a certain amount of a certain kind
15 of habitat?
16 DR. REID: I would judge -- there are different levels
17 of success. I would judge the fact that a burn was
18 attempted in the Basin as the first level of success, and
19 that's already happened. The other levels of success that I
20 think you should judge are the amount of acreage that is
21 burned, the amount of open water habitat that remains, and
22 then the final level of success is what residual habitats
23 remain over several years judging at how long these openings
24 remain before they are revegetated in.
25 MS. CAHILL: Right. But is there not some amount that
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1 you would want to have remain or that would be your goal to
2 have it remain?
3 DR. REID: I guess if we're looking at open water
4 habitat and trying to replicate what existed historically at
5 Mono Lake, you go back to the northern lagoon system and
6 recognize that there were some 200 acres of open water
7 habitat in those northern lagoons and it may be possible to
8 offer some of that open water habitat in the complex of the
9 Simons Springs area and one might consider looking at
10 acreages up to, say, 200 acres of open habitat in that
11 region.
12 MS. CAHILL: What was the value of the lagoon habitat?
13 DR. REID: Well, we know that from surveys from people
14 that hunted the area that they did hunt the northern lagoons
15 and it is assumed that part of the value of that area is
16 that it was slack water and when it was stormy out on the
17 lake that the birds would move to that slack water in the
18 north lagoons. So a similar situation would exist at Simons
19 Springs given very windy, wavy conditions on the lake.
20 MS. CAHILL: Okay. And in the event that the burn
21 program didn't result in some acceptable number of acres of
22 lasting open water habitat, would you then recommend that
23 other measures be implemented to provide that type of
24 habitat?
25 DR. REID: Potentially. We recommended here that
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1 there was the potential for scrape habitats in that area.
2 We recommend in this document -- and I think I mentioned it
3 in my testimony -- that what we suggest is that, first, a
4 scrape is initiated at Black Point and that is carefully
5 monitored. And given positive waterfowl response of that
6 scrape area then you consider it in the second phase as
7 potential of those other sites.
8 We further recognized that in the TAG meetings there
9 was not a lot of support by the State Lands for any
10 intrusion of materials on the state land areas, and we were
11 not suggesting that you force an agency to implement a
12 manipulative activity that may be against their long-term
13 strategies for ecological equality.
14 MS. CAHILL: I believe the Forest Service last week
15 testified there might be sites on Forest Service land.
16 Have you --
17 DR. REID: Then that's the Black Point site that is on
18 Forest Service land and we looked at some other sites. I
19 think it's especially desirable as you look from DeChambeau
20 Ponds around the Black Point because this is an area that's
21 had a lot of disturbance. It's not a pristine setting in
22 terms of physical manipulation of the ground.
23 Again, these are very, very subtle operations. I
24 mentioned in my testimony two to fifteen centimeters. And I
25 believe as you look at that Black Point site if there is
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 very positive response by these birds, then one might
2 consider more extensive activities.
3 MS. CAHILL: What is the nature of the disturbance at
4 Black Point?
5 DR. REID: Well, there currently exists an artesian
6 flow at that site from a well and what the -- what the
7 disturbance -- well, the disturbance was the fact that
8 they've been mining that cinder there.
9 MS. CAHILL: What standards would you use for
10 measuring the success of the strength of Black Point?
11 DR. REID: We would look -- I would look at bird
12 response to the site and I would look at bird response in
13 terms of total numbers across a daily period and I would
14 look at the kinds of activity the birds had in those sites.
15 If you had a fairly large number of birds that were
16 drinking, that were bathing, it may very well indicate that
17 you still have a paucity of those kinds of habitats in the
18 deltas of those streams and that those scrapes may serve as
19 a function for that bathing and drinking.
20 MS. CAHILL: So that if the Black Point scrape
21 indicated that waterfowl would use such a scrape, you would
22 then perhaps recommend other scrapes in the Basin?
23 DR. REID: I would.
24 MS. CAHILL: Assuming that the land management agency
25 consented?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. REID: Right.
2 MS. CAHILL: What would be a reasonable acreage for
3 such additional scrapes?
4 DR. REID: I guess I wouldn't want to say until I saw
5 what kind of response you had at the Black Point site. I
6 would go very slowly into putting out more scrapes. I would
7 not -- if there was positive response on the Black Point
8 scrape, I would not immediately say, "Great, let's do 200
9 acres of scrapes around the lake." I would rather say,
10 "Let's look at two to three other scrapes in other areas and
11 see if we have similar response."
12 MS. CAHILL: Would you recommend, though, that at the
13 end of a particular period of time if all the scientists'
14 recommendations were carried out, that you would have some
15 sort of a yardstick to measure whether there has been
16 sufficient habitat created that the plan has succeeded?
17 DR. REID: My recommendation is that it should be a
18 very adaptive program and I would suggest -- and I believe
19 we do at the end of this document -- that there be an annual
20 meeting of the players involved perhaps taking the TAG and
21 continuing it in a meeting to look at what is the result in
22 terms of both lake rising, in terms of projects that are
23 going on. And I think this is very important not only in
24 viewing how birds are responding to the habitats, but what
25 is the progress of various projects.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 If a project gets hung up for two years in the permit
2 process, something is clearly going on there and I think it
3 would be unfortunate to wait until the year 2014 to say, you
4 know, "Well, you know, you should have gone to this office
5 rather than this office."
6 By having an annual meeting of all the concerned
7 parties, I think you can speed up the process of getting
8 habitat out on the landscape.
9 MS. CAHILL: Do you see provisions for adaptive
10 management in Los Angeles' waterfowl plan?
11 DR. REID: I do not see it. I think there's room for
12 it and I think there's the potential for it.
13 MS. CAHILL: And you would recommend it?
14 DR. REID: Absolutely.
15 MS. CAHILL: Back on the subject of burning. Your
16 testimony indicates that you thought that some jackpot burns
17 may have been completed by now.
18 Do you know whether they have been?
19 DR. REID: No, I don't.
20 MS. CAHILL: And can you tell me what you mean by
21 "jackpot burn"?
22 DR. REID: A "jackpot burn" is a forestry term in
23 which you're going -- in this case it's the Rush Creek
24 bottoms and you're going out into the Rush Creek bottoms and
25 burning very specific sites of dead, residual, woody
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 material and they're small sites. You go out in the winter
2 so you're not risking a major burn to burn out the whole
3 riparian area of Rush Creek, but the areas are about the
4 size of these tables right here connected. They're
5 relatively small. They may interconnect slightly larger
6 areas, maybe the size of this room. But they're relatively
7 small, patchwork burns in the bottoms.
8 MS. CAHILL: And the purpose is to accomplish what?
9 DR. REID: The purpose is to rid the area of the
10 large, dead, woody material and instead provide then the
11 substrate for new herbaceous growth or open water areas.
12 MS. CAHILL: And would this material be in stream
13 channels or is it on the uplands?
14 DR. REID: Some of it's on the edge of the floodplain.
15 Others of it might be in the stream itself, and what we
16 suggested was that the fishery scientists be consulted to
17 make sure that we weren't negatively impacting the
18 fisheries' habitat in this method.
19 MS. CAHILL: Okay. And you would recommend that that
20 be included in Los Angeles' plan as well, that fishery
21 interests be taken into account?
22 DR. REID: Absolutely. You know, we discussed some of
23 this plan with Dr. Ridenhour but, again, we were instructed
24 to keep it to a waterfowl plan. So we didn't mix some of
25 the fisheries issues.
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1 MS. CAHILL: Okay. With regard to the County Ponds
2 project, you recommend that it be carried out only if
3 artesian flow is available; is that right?
4 DR. REID: That's correct.
5 MS. CAHILL: And is that your recommendation or the
6 three scientists?
7 DR. REID: That's my recommendation.
8 MS. CAHILL: Okay. In the event that artesian flow is
9 not available, would you recommend that there be some other
10 measure implemented to provide an equivalent amount of
11 habitat?
12 DR. REID: I think at this time looking at the lake
13 that if one cannot get artesian flow -- and this goes after
14 the aspect of feasibility, cost, cost per acre, et cetera,
15 that the County Ponds project with a drilled well, a pump
16 system is very costly and it is costly not simply in the
17 original implementation, but it's far more costly in its
18 long-term O & M. In this case it's on Forest Service
19 ground.
20 So my recommendation is that you would shelve the
21 project at that time if you could not get artesian flow.
22 MS. CAHILL: Okay. You testified that the scientists'
23 plan is a package and not a shopping list or a grocery list;
24 is that right?
25 DR. REID: Yes, that's true.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MS. CAHILL: Okay. So if it is a package and some of
2 the items can't be put in the shopping cart for one reason
3 or another, are we going to go hungry or are we going to
4 replace those items with some other items?
5 DR. REID: My feeling is that it's not an "A" through
6 "F" selection where if you remove one item you're just one
7 sixth less of the properties, because each of those elements
8 is replacing a real critical need in the Basin.
9 If you are unable through some mechanism not to
10 achieve or not to be able to do one or more of these
11 factors, I think it's directly going to influence the amount
12 of waterfowl recovery you're going to see.
13 We state in the document that we do not believe even
14 if you are able to instigate all of these items that you'll
15 return waterfowl numbers to historic levels. We do,
16 however, believe that if you are able to recover these
17 wetland habitats as we suggest, that you will see a recovery
18 of waterfowl.
19 MS. CAHILL: Okay. If you are not able to implement
20 one or more of the measures, though, then you would
21 recommend adaptive management --
22 DR. REID: Exactly.
23 MS. CAHILL: -- to consider what else might be done?
24 DR. REID: Correct.
25 MS. CAHILL: Thank you very much.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 No further questions.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, Ms. Cahill.
3 Ms. Scoonover, do you have questions?
4 MS. SCOONOVER: I do, Mr. Caffrey. It will be longer
5 than 15 minutes. Would you like to begin or --
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: You anticipated my question. Why
7 don't we take up your questions now and then we'll take a
8 break and come back for the staff after lunch.
9 DR. REID: Is she going to be fairly long, because I'd
10 like to take a two-minute break if she is.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Fifteen minutes.
12 MS. SCOONOVER: I'm sorry, Mr. Caffrey, I said I would
13 be longer than 15 minutes.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, you said you would be longer
15 than 15 minutes.
16 MS. SCOONOVER: Yes.
17 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, let's see, we're going to
18 have to quit today about 4:30 at the latest for Board
19 Members' schedules, including my own.
20 I suppose we could take a lunch break now and come
21 back at a quarter to 1:00. Is that agreeable to everybody?
22 Let's start at a quarter to 1:00. Thank you.
23 MR. FRINK: Mr. Caffrey.
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, Mr. Frink, before we all rush
25 out.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. FRINK: Yeah, I just wanted to bring up again that
2 our understanding is that Dr. Ridenhour and Mr. Trush -- or
3 Dr. Trush will not be easily available after today.
4 So if we don't come back until after lunch and we
5 still have further cross-examination, redirect, perhaps some
6 recross, we're going to be running short of time to get
7 through those witnesses. I wonder if it's worth going as
8 far as we can for 30 minutes or so and seeing if we get done
9 with the party's cross-examination of these witnesses.
10 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, I think we have Board Members
11 here that have the same problems, perhaps that --
12 MR. FRINK: I didn't mean the two minutes.
13 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Maybe the way we handle that, does
14 anybody think that an hour for lunch is too long?
15 All right. I could live with, say, half an hour. Do
16 you want to come back at 12:30, take 45 minutes? That will
17 give us a little more time. All right, let's do that.
18 We'll resume at 12:30. Thank you.
19 (Lunch recess taken.)
20 ---oOo---
21
22
23
24
25
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 AFTERNOON SESSION
2 ---oOo---
3 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, let's see, I think we
4 were about to hear from Ms. Scoonover for cross-examination.
5 Good afternoon and welcome.
6 MS. SCOONOVER: Thank you, Mr. Caffrey. Board
7 Members, Dr. Reid and Mr. Shuford.
8 ---oOo---
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY CALIFORNIA STATE LANDS COMMISSION AND CALIFORNIA
11 DEPARTMENT OF PARKS AND RECREATION:
12 MS. SCOONOVER: I'd like to start with you, Dr. Reid.
13 At the now numbered pages --
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, excuse me, Ms. Scoonover. Some
15 people are gesturing that they can't hear and I noticed this
16 morning that that mike at the podium isn't picking up very
17 well. I think we may have had some problem hearing some of
18 your questions, too, Jerry. Maybe you could -- see if we
19 can make an adjustment back here if you'll bear with us for
20 a moment.
21 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Mr. Chairman.
22 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Roos-Collins.
23 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Mr. Johns has improved on the
24 timing procedure. The green light is still on.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I'm not sure we made that all that
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 clear to Mr. Johns about not charging you for our time.
2 We'll start the clock again at 60 minutes.
3 That's better. Mr. Johns, we'll restart the clock.
4 All right, thank you.
5 MS. SCOONOVER: Dr. Reid, at the now numbered pages of
6 your testimony beginning on page four and going on to page
7 five, you summarized the three waterfowl scientists'
8 recommendations for waterfowl habitat restoration.
9 Are those actions -- are those the actions that the
10 scientists considered necessary to restore habitats?
11 DR. REID: Yes, that's true.
12 MS. SCOONOVER: And are you confident that the
13 recommendations made by the waterfowl scientists, you and
14 the other two, and summarized at pages four and five of your
15 testimony will actually restore waterfowl habitat at Mono
16 Lake?
17 DR. REID: These will restore waterfowl habitats at
18 Mono Lake. The degree to which they will recover
19 populations has yet to be shown.
20 MS. SCOONOVER: You noted some confusion in your
21 testimony over which portions of yours -- the scientists'
22 plan DWP was adopting.
23 If DWP were to adopt the actions described at pages
24 four and five, would you have a high level of confidence
25 that waterfowl habitat would be restored.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. REID: Yes, I would.
2 MS. SCOONOVER: If DWP's plan was adopted without the
3 above clarification, the clarification at pages four and
4 five of your testimony, would you have a similar high level
5 of confidence that waterfowl habitat would be restored?
6 DR. REID: No, I think there's some confusing elements
7 there and I would just be uncertain as to the total plan
8 they had anticipated.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: At page four of your testimony, next
10 to raising the lake level the scientists identified
11 rewatering Mill Creek "...including important
12 distributaries, and raising the water table in the
13 floodplain to restore riparian, marsh, spring, wet meadow,
14 and open ponds and sloughs, and to recreate a hypopycnal
15 environment off the mouth of the stream" as your highest
16 restoration priority.
17 Are all of these habitat types important for
18 waterfowl?
19 DR. REID: Yes, and they're all important in relation
20 to a complex at the same place and that's why we believe
21 this is our number one priority.
22 MS. SCOONOVER: You identified Mill Creek restoration
23 as the most significant difference between your -- the
24 scientists' recommendations and DWP's recommendations.
25 With the DWP plan would it be possible to rewater the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 distributaries in the bottomlands?
2 DR. REID: Probably not because there's a low level of
3 water, especially during the fall period.
4 MS. SCOONOVER: Would it be possible to raise the
5 water table in the floodplain?
6 DR. REID: Probably not.
7 MS. SCOONOVER: Would it be possible to restore
8 riparian habitat?
9 DR. REID: Not to the extent possible that you have of
10 the full flow.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: Would it be possible to restore marsh
12 habitat?
13 DR. REID: Not flooded marsh habitat in the fall
14 period when the migrants come through.
15 MS. SCOONOVER: Would it be possible to restore spring
16 habitat?
17 DR. REID: Again --
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Objection, ambiguous. Do you mean
19 spring as in "springs" or "springtime"?
20 MS. SCOONOVER: "Spring" as in listed at page four of
21 Dr. Reid's testimony that I just read rewatering Mill Creek
22 "...including..." and then he goes into a list of items.
23 DR. REID: The spring habitat I refer to there --
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Just a minute, Dr. Reid. Is
25 that -- (pause.)
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Yeah, that's an appropriate reference. So if you can
2 explain your answer in relation to that definition of
3 "spring."
4 DR. REID: The "spring" definition I use on page four
5 is "spring" as in "bubbling spring" rather than a temporal
6 description.
7 Spring habitat, to my understanding, would be more
8 improved with a higher flow, especially in the fall period.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: Would it be possible under DWP's plan
10 to restore wet meadow habitat?
11 DR. REID: Not to the extent possible if you have 11
12 cfs in the fall, as we suggest.
13 MS. SCOONOVER: Under DWP's plan how about open water
14 ponds?
15 DR. REID: There would be some small amount of open
16 water in the channel during the spring and summer, but very
17 restrictive as compared to a higher flow.
18 MS. SCOONOVER: With DWP's plan would it be possible
19 to restore sloughs?
20 DR. REID: No, I don't believe that slough habitat
21 would be provided, especially in the fall habitat.
22 MS. SCOONOVER: With DWP's plan would it be possible
23 to restore hypopycnal -- or to create hypopycnal ria?
24 DR. REID: My understanding would be that it would be
25 greatly reduced in the fall period under those conditions.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MS. SCOONOVER: And, finally, under DWP's plan would
2 it be possible to create a hypopycnal lense off the mouth of
3 the stream?
4 DR. REID: Certainly not to the extent that you'd have
5 under higher flow levels. Higher flow levels would give you
6 a much higher extent of that hypopycnal area.
7 MS. SCOONOVER: Would DWP's plan provide for high
8 flows throughout the spring and summer?
9 DR. REID: No, that's one of the things that we were
10 concerned about.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: Without these flows could the stream
12 maintain channel integrity?
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Objection, I don't believe that
14 Dr. Reid is qualified to express an expert opinion on
15 channel integrity.
16 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Are you qualified to answer that
17 question, Dr. Reid?
18 MS. SCOONOVER: Excuse me, Mr. Caffrey, if I may,
19 Dr. Reid specifically mentions channel integrity in his
20 testimony at page seven as a reason for the high spring and
21 summer flows.
22 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I'll allow the question -- or I
23 should say I'll allow the answer.
24 MS. SCOONOVER: If you have problem with it, Dr. Reid,
25 we can move on.
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1 DR. REID: Why don't you move on.
2 MS. SCOONOVER: Without -- would DWP's plan allow for
3 the reestablishment of -- with DWP's plan where you've
4 already testified that spring and summer flows would be
5 below what the scientists believe is necessary, would DWP's
6 plan provide adequate flows to establish riparian
7 vegetation?
8 DR. REID: Some riparian vegetation may occur, but not
9 to the extent that would be extremely valuable to waterfowl
10 and not to the extent that higher flows would provide.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: Would their spring and summer flow
12 regime replenish ground water that could persist into the
13 fall and winter?
14 DR. REID: We do not believe that that would happen,
15 no.
16 MS. SCOONOVER: You also noted that DWP's plan will
17 not provide for adequate fall flows.
18 Why are fall flows important for waterfowl?
19 DR. REID: Fall flows are critical to waterfowl
20 because the fall flows will allow the birds to use that
21 important delta habitat. The fall flows will increase that
22 spring activity which goes into the lakeshore. The fall
23 flows will assist in increasing the size of the hypopycnal
24 zone, and the fall flows would flood both meadow and marsh
25 habitats and back water habitats. These are the habitats
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1 that would be used by the migrant fall waterfowl.
2 MS. SCOONOVER: Dr. Reid, do you believe that the
3 bottomlands habitat created at Mill Creek would be similar
4 to the Rush or Lee Vining Creek bottomlands habitat that
5 existed pre-1940?
6 DR. REID: Yes, that's one of the reasons that we
7 think that this is such a high priority in restoration in
8 that you are allowing a system to recover and a system that
9 is representative of some lost habitat in other parts of the
10 lake.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: Dr. Reid, are you aware of testimony
12 given in this hearing previously regarding the quality of
13 habitat at Rush and Lee Vining Creek bottomlands in terms of
14 waterfowl?
15 DR. REID: During this period?
16 MS. SCOONOVER: In the previous hearings.
17 DR. REID: Yes, yes, in the previous hearings I am.
18 MS. SCOONOVER: And did you talk to locals who had
19 firsthand knowledge of the habitat at Rush and Lee Vining
20 Creek bottomlands pre-diversion?
21 DR. REID: Yes, we did and we looked at some written
22 testimony.
23 MS. SCOONOVER: And what did that testimony and those
24 conversations produce in your mind?
25 DR. REID: That led us to believe that the combination
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1 of habitats at the deltas and up the stream in relation to
2 the shoreline lake habitat was really the critical link of
3 why birds use those habitats.
4 MS. SCOONOVER: Okay. Thank you, Dr. Reid. I'd like
5 to move to Wilson Creek now.
6 Is it your opinion that Wilson Creek provides minimal
7 waterfowl habitat presently?
8 DR. REID: Yes, that's my opinion.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you aware of some habitat at the
10 mouth of Wilson Creek?
11 DR. REID: Yes.
12 MS. SCOONOVER: What attracts the ducks to the mouth
13 of Wilson Creek?
14 DR. REID: What attracts the ducks to the mouth of
15 Wilson Creek is the interaction of the fresh and saline
16 water. It will stir up materials and the fresh water
17 itself, which is a source of drink and bathing.
18 MS. SCOONOVER: Is this habitat likely to be lost if
19 Mill Creek were rewatered?
20 DR. REID: It may be diminished right at that
21 location, but it overall -- area for the west side of the
22 lake, the improved habitat at Mill Creek and existing
23 habitat that will remain at Wilson Creek with the minor flow
24 will be much greater.
25 MS. SCOONOVER: So if some of the habitat is likely to
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1 move to Mill Creek, is it likely the ducks will follow?
2 DR. REID: Absolutely.
3 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you familiar with the marsh area
4 at the mouth of Wilson Creek?
5 DR. REID: Yes.
6 MS. SCOONOVER: And are you aware that the marsh was
7 formed as part of the Mill Creek delta marsh?
8 DR. REID: I believe I have heard that.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you aware that sediment carried
10 down Wilson Creek is actually covering the marsh and is
11 destroying it?
12 DR. REID: Yes, I am aware of that.
13 MS. SCOONOVER: Have you witnessed that?
14 DR. REID: Yes.
15 MS. SCOONOVER: If you assume that this is the case
16 and if that's borne out by your experience, would that
17 strengthen your recommendations to return the Wilson Creek
18 flows to Mill Creek?
19 DR. REID: Yeah, that's one of the reasons we
20 recommended that the water be returned to Mill Creek because
21 we state -- and we were trying to be very succinct here. We
22 state that --
23 MS. SCOONOVER: Where's "here"?
24 DR. REID: This is in the appendix of the waterfowl
25 plan. This is written by the scientists and we state that
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1 the best use of current Wilson Creek water is to return most
2 of it to Mill Creek.
3 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you familiar with springs
4 occurring at the mouth of Wilson Creek?
5 DR. REID: At the mouth of Wilson Creek, yes.
6 MS. SCOONOVER: And are you aware of tufa that's also
7 located there?
8 DR. REID: Yes, I am.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you aware of the age of that tufa?
10 DR. REID: No, I am not.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you aware of the elevation of the
12 marsh that exists at Wilson Creek?
13 DR. REID: We discussed that while we were out on
14 site, but I can't tell you what that elevation is right now.
15 MS. SCOONOVER: Is it your understanding that some of
16 that marsh would be covered as the lake rises?
17 DR. REID: Yes, it was my understanding as much as a
18 half of that was going to be inundated by the rising water.
19 MS. SCOONOVER: If Mill Creek were rewatered as you
20 recommend, including reopening the distributary channels as
21 sufficient flows to meet all of the objectives you
22 identified, how soon would you expect to see a noticeable
23 difference in the habitat?
24 DR. REID: "Noticeable difference" is the key phrase
25 there. Given high flows in the spring and summer, I believe
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1 that you would see noticeable change as early as that first
2 fall in terms of water flow, in terms of the extent of that
3 delta in the -- as it entered the lake. Not necessarily
4 vegetation response, but you would see change in the
5 morphology of the way the system flowed. I believe you
6 would see immediate response by waterfowl; but in terms of
7 general change in regards to vegetation, that may take a
8 couple years.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: So your testimony is that there would
10 be usable waterfowl habitat within the first season that
11 water is returned to Mill Creek in the manner you described?
12 DR. REID: Absolutely.
13 MS. SCOONOVER: Great. Thank you, Dr. Reid.
14 Mr. Shuford, you discuss at page two of your testimony
15 some studies at Abert Lake that showed northern shovelers'
16 diets included about 25 percent by weight of alkali flies.
17 Do you recall that testimony?
18 MR. SHUFORD: Yes, I do.
19 MS. SCOONOVER: How does 25 percent by weight
20 translate into nutritional value?
21 MR. SHUFORD: Well, the studies that have been done on
22 alkali flies indicate the nutritional value is measured by
23 caloric value and lipid or fat content indicate they're much
24 higher than brine shrimp.
25 MS. SCOONOVER: So various stages of alkali fly have a
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1 high fat content?
2 MR. SHUFORD: That's correct.
3 MS. SCOONOVER: So how important is the alkali fly to
4 meeting the nutritional needs of northern shovelers?
5 MR. SHUFORD: I think it would be quite high. If you
6 look more carefully at those studies, one thing they do say
7 in there is the seeds, which are found in the diet there,
8 which I think, if I remember correctly was about 25 percent
9 of the diet, they thought those were taken incidentally to
10 other prey items they were actually looking for; and if you
11 look at the quality of those food items, both the seeds and
12 brine shrimp cysts which they took in, also have a lot of
13 undigestable material and fiber in kind. So they wouldn't
14 be as nutritionally valuable.
15 Also, at Abert Lake the brine shrimp there, the cysts
16 float to the top so they could be sieved out by the
17 shovelers. At Mono Lake those cysts would not be available
18 because they drop to the bottom of the lake.
19 MS. SCOONOVER: Are there any other differences
20 between the materials found in the ducks at Abert Lake and
21 the materials you would expect to be found at Mono Lake?
22 MR. SHUFORD: Well, another ten percent of diet at
23 Abert Lake was water fleas which wouldn't be an important
24 item at Mono Lake. So at Mono Lake you only really have two
25 main prey items, the alkali fly and brine shrimp, and of
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1 those two the alkali fly would be considered more
2 nutritious.
3 MS. SCOONOVER: Has the diet of waterfowl ever been
4 studied at Mono Lake?
5 MR. SHUFORD: I don't think specifically. There are
6 some anecdotal accounts in the EIR that was presented to
7 this Board, and in there they talk about stomachs that were
8 examined by some people that shot waterfowl and they said
9 they were loaded with both pupae and larvae of brine fly --
10 or alkali flies.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: I'm trying to keep Mr. Frink's
12 admonition in mind in terms of my alkali fly questions. So
13 I'm trying to refocus a bit, excuse me.
14 So, to your knowledge, Dr. Shuford, there is no study
15 that's been conducted to determine whether or not food
16 availability at Mono Lake is a limiting factor for the
17 waterfowl?
18 MR. SHUFORD: No, I don't think any studies have been
19 done for any species at Mono Lake regarding limiting of food
20 availability.
21 MS. SCOONOVER: If we assume that you're correct that
22 brine shrimp and alkali flies would be the two sources of
23 food for the northern shoveler at Mono Lake, would the
24 decline in one population, say, for example, the shrimp
25 negatively affect the northern shoveler population at the
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1 lake?
2 MR. SHUFORD: Well, I couldn't answer that
3 specifically. I mean, it might. I mean, there's a question
4 whether or not food is currently limiting at the lake or
5 not. If it wasn't, then a decrease of either of those
6 things might not make a difference; but, again, it might.
7 MS. SCOONOVER: So what is the significance of not
8 monitoring a significant source of nutrition for waterfowl
9 at Mono Lake?
10 MR. SHUFORD: Well, I think we would want to, you
11 know, get all the various factors that are having a major
12 impact on the northern shoveler, which is the waterfowl
13 species that was most numerous at Mono Lake.
14 We want to be monitoring all those factors that could
15 influence them; and if we don't look at the alkali fly,
16 which may be the most important food item or surely equal to
17 the brine shrimp, we'd be missing out on some very important
18 data.
19 MS. SCOONOVER: Do alkali flies and brine shrimp
20 inhabit different habitat?
21 MR. SHUFORD: Oh, yes, they do. You can't find them
22 together, but they have very different life histories. The
23 inshore zone closer to the shore at Mono Lake where
24 waterfowl would be feeding would be the zone where you'd
25 have a lot more alkali flies.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MS. SCOONOVER: Do alkali flies and brine shrimp have
2 different food requirements and developmental traits?
3 MR. SHUFORD: I understand they do. I obviously
4 haven't studied alkali flies.
5 MS. SCOONOVER: And different population demographics
6 as well?
7 MR. SHUFORD: That's what I understand.
8 MS. SCOONOVER: Are you familiar with the work that
9 Dr. Herbst has done at Mono Lake?
10 MR. SHUFORD: Yes, I am.
11 MS. SCOONOVER: And are you aware of whether or not
12 baseline population data for alkali flies from 1991 through
13 1995, including measurements of change and substrate area
14 coverage, densities on submerged vegetation and adult
15 emergent rates exist today?
16 MR. SHUFORD: Dr. Herbst has communicated that
17 information to me, that he does have good monitoring data
18 from 1991 to '95 on alkali flies.
19 MS. SCOONOVER: And is this material available?
20 MR. SHUFORD: It would be available from him. I don't
21 think it's published data at this point.
22 MS. SCOONOVER: Great, thank you. That's all.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you,
24 Ms. Scoonover. Cross-examination from the staff. Anything?
25 MR. FRINK: Yes, we do have some questions,
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1 Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Frink.
3 ---oOo---
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY STAFF:
6 MR. FRINK: I'll begin, Dr. Reid. I wonder if you
7 could explain what the role of Ducks Unlimited was in the
8 planning and construction of the DeChambeau project?
9 DR. REID: Right. We were originally asked by some
10 residents of the Basin and the Mono Lake Committee to come
11 over to the Basin and look if there was potential projects
12 that we saw that could be restored in the Mono Basin.
13 Don Banta was one of those individuals from the Basin
14 who had been a member of Ducks Unlimited for a long time and
15 was interested -- and he had hunted at DeChambeau Ponds for
16 many, many years and was interested in seeing that habitat
17 restored. So there were --
18 MR. FRINK: What year was that that you first --
19 DR. REID: DeChambeau Ponds --
20 MR. FRINK: Yes.
21 DR. REID: -- was the site that Don Banta had hunted
22 in.
23 MR. FRINK: Right. And when was Ducks Unlimited first
24 consulted regarding the possibility of restoring DeChambeau
25 Ponds?
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1 DR. REID: I'm thinking '92. I think that's the year.
2 MR. FRINK: Okay. And who did Ducks Unlimited work
3 with in the eventual construction of the project?
4 DR. REID: We worked with three other partners. The
5 Mono Lake Committee was responsible for discussing the
6 project in relation to the local community and helping
7 assist in permitting.
8 The Forest Service -- U.S. Forest Service owned and
9 maintained the land and their part of the partnership was to
10 do the long-term O & M on the project. They provided the
11 in-kind land value of the project that we put forward, and
12 the main funder of the project was the Transportation
13 Department, Caltrans, and then Ducks Unlimited directly with
14 direct funding.
15 MR. FRINK: Okay. How much was the funding that Ducks
16 Unlimited contributed?
17 DR. REID: Our funding -- I'm talking off the top of
18 my head here, but I'm thinking it was $40,000 directly up
19 front, some in kind, and then in relation to the placing of
20 the alluvium at the end, that will come out to about 60 to
21 75 K.
22 MR. FRINK: And when we hear the sum $430,000 as the
23 cost of constructing the project, does that include either
24 the in-kind work from Ducks Unlimited or from the Forest
25 Service?
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1 DR. REID: Yes.
2 MR. FRINK: It does?
3 DR. REID: Yes.
4 MR. FRINK: How much was the contribution of Caltrans
5 toward the project?
6 DR. REID: I believe it was 350.
7 MR. FRINK: Okay. Prior to undertaking the project,
8 the DeChambeau Ponds, did Ducks Unlimited undertake any sort
9 of baseline assessment of waterfowl habitat conditions in
10 the Mono Basin?
11 DR. REID: No, other than discussing with the
12 residents of the Basin where historic birds were found in
13 the Basin and we were more specifically interested in the
14 specific site of DeChambeau, what species of birds used the
15 habitat, what kind of densities were found in the area and
16 probably most important the timing of when the birds use the
17 habitat.
18 MR. FRINK: So the project was constructed without any
19 sort of overall assessment of waterfowl habitat in the
20 basin?
21 DR. REID: We went to the Department of Fish and Game
22 to seek out data on long-term trends, surveys, et cetera,
23 and they said that did not exist. And so we went to seek it
24 out but we couldn't find any, and it wasn't until after when
25 the EIR was being prepared that we found some of the
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1 additional data.
2 MR. FRINK: What type of monitoring and evaluation
3 program was developed as part of the DeChambeau Ponds
4 project?
5 DR. REID: There is a protocol for monitoring and
6 evaluation of the DeChambeau project. It was written up in
7 the original proposal. It's carried through as part of our
8 agreement with the Forest Service.
9 What it does is it asks for annual water usage, annual
10 water level relationships on the different ponds and it
11 seeks information on bird usage.
12 MR. FRINK: And who is responsible for collecting the
13 information on bird usage?
14 DR. REID: The Forest Service is with some assistance
15 by Ducks Unlimited where possible.
16 MR. FRINK: Do you evaluate -- or do you intend to
17 evaluate the success or the effect of the DeChambeau project
18 in regard to what else is going on in the Mono Basin?
19 DR. REID: Where possible. Unfortunately, we have a
20 really small staff that's responsible for delivering habitat
21 across the west and it's difficult for us to, you know, have
22 staff available on a weekly or bi-weekly basis up in the
23 Basin. We'll probably try to work with the Forest Service
24 to develop that protocol.
25 MR. FRINK: You mentioned the work of Ducks Unlimited
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1 throughout the west. My understanding is you've been
2 involved literally in the restoration of millions of acres
3 of waterfowl habitat; is that correct?
4 DR. REID: That's correct.
5 MR. FRINK: And what sort of monitoring program is
6 normally included in those projects?
7 DR. REID: That's generally left to the managing
8 agency that's responsible. In most cases it's the US Fish
9 and Wildlife Service or a state Fish and Game and a protocol
10 is set up in terms of an evaluation of hydrology, how close
11 the project fits in terms of the desired hydrology.
12 Typically we're trying to mimic a regional hydrologic
13 cycle and we look at the hydrology to see how that's working
14 in relation to mimicking the regional hydrology. They
15 record the plant response on the different sites and we'll
16 evaluate that. Generally we do come in every three to five
17 years and evaluate whether there has been strong succession
18 in an area and perhaps if fire or a physical manipulation is
19 necessary to push some of the succession back in the
20 seasonally flooded areas to an earlier succession and then,
21 finally, the water bird surveys which are taken at very
22 different levels.
23 On some of our projects we have very specific
24 bi-weekly surveys in which birds are tracked, populations
25 are tracked and we have long-term data -- we have data back
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1 to 1988 on some of our projects bi-weekly and the bird
2 response. The Cosumnes project down just south of town here
3 is one of those, or we have relationships with the agencies
4 where we have an agreed-upon one time period survey say in
5 December or January when they'll take those data.
6 MR. FRINK: How long do you continue that monitoring
7 in most instances?
8 DR. REID: In most instances we've done that since the
9 project was completed in our office. Our office opened in
10 '87. So we have data in some cases ten years old for some
11 of our projects. For our Canadian counterparts which began
12 in 1938, they have data on the waterfowl use in terms of
13 breeding and/or brood use in some cases back to the '40's.
14 MR. FRINK: Is the lining of the DeChambeau Ponds with
15 Bentonite expected to have any affect on the value of the
16 ponds for waterfowl habitat?
17 DR. REID: We think that it will increase the value
18 for waterfowl because it's going to hold water. Without the
19 Bentonite there was a high loss of water and it was very
20 frustrating for the Forest Service in terms of their ability
21 to put water on --
22 MR. FRINK: Excuse me, I guess I wasn't clear. I
23 assume it's important to retain water in the ponds to supply
24 habitat, but would Ducks Unlimited prefer from a habitat
25 standpoint to have the ponds lined or unlined?
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1 DR. REID: We would have preferred to have it unlined.
2 One for the additional cost, but two because of the impact.
3 What you have to do is we had to remove the topsoil from the
4 pond, put the Bentonite down and then return the topsoil
5 over the Bentonite so that our seed source and propagule
6 source was still available to germinate as those ponds
7 dried.
8 MR. FRINK: Okay. Page 85 of the waterfowl
9 scientists' report, do you have a copy of that that was
10 included with the Los Angeles plan?
11 DR. REID: No, I have the original copy, but I'll
12 follow you. Just tell me the paragraph you're looking at.
13 MR. FRINK: In my copy it's the page immediately
14 preceding the page labeled Figure 18. So it begins -- the
15 paragraph begins -- it's in the middle of the page, "In
16 addition to flooding the DeChambeau Ponds, it is possible to
17 extend the underground irrigation pipe to rewater the
18 adjacent ten acre riparian zone." Have you located that?
19 DR. REID: Yep, I've got that.
20 MR. FRINK: Okay. How was that zone of riparian
21 acreage originally watered?
22 DR. REID: It was originally watered from diversion of
23 water down Wilson Creek and then surface flowed across
24 there.
25 MR. FRINK: Okay. And when did that stop?
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1 DR. REID: Early '90's, I think. '90 or maybe '89.
2 MR. FRINK: Okay. And who owns the property at that
3 location?
4 DR. REID: U.S. Forest Service. The U.S. Forest
5 Service has data on that. They could be consulted as to the
6 specific time of that.
7 MR. FRINK: Okay. Page 88 of the three scientists'
8 waterfowl habitat report, it's immediately after the
9 picture -- the large color photo that comes after Figure 18.
10 Have you located that in your copy?
11 DR. REID: Okay.
12 MR. FRINK: Okay. It refers to rewatering the County
13 Ponds area to flood about 20 acres and then in Table 7 on
14 the following page the cost estimate for this proposal, as I
15 understand it, is $638,000 -- or $638,437, excuse me.
16 Am I correct in assuming, then, that in terms of
17 dollars per acre the cost of the County Ponds project as
18 proposed in the three scientists' waterfowl habitat report
19 is about $31,900 per acre?
20 DR. REID: If that's 638,000 divided by 22, yes.
21 MR. FRINK: Are you familiar with the historical use
22 of the DeChambeau Ponds and County Ponds areas by waterfowl?
23 DR. REID: Yes, in talking with former duck hunters in
24 the Basin I am familiar with that.
25 MR. FRINK: Okay. Do the reports, both oral or
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1 written, indicate that waterfowl use of that area was
2 extensive?
3 DR. REID: They indicate that probably the highest
4 diversity of waterfowl used those habitats on the lake. In
5 other words, the greatest number of species of waterfowl
6 used that DeChambeau/County Ponds complex.
7 MR. FRINK: And were there a lot of birds in that
8 area?
9 DR. REID: There were a lot of birds as well.
10 MR. FRINK: Are there a lot of birds in the portion of
11 the ponds that have been restored now?
12 DR. REID: Not to date.
13 MR. FRINK: How were the ponds supplied with water
14 historically?
15 DR. REID: Historically it was overflow water from
16 Wilson Creek.
17 MR. FRINK: Okay. In helping to prepare the three
18 scientists' waterfowl habitat restoration proposal were you
19 working as a consultant to the City of Los Angeles or as a
20 representative of Ducks Unlimited?
21 DR. REID: I was a representative of Ducks Unlimited
22 and the LADWP paid Ducks Unlimited for my time.
23 MR. FRINK: Is the report presented as a
24 recommendation of the three individual scientists or is it
25 also presented as a recommendation of the organizations from
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1 which they came?
2 DR. REID: No, it's represented from the three
3 individual scientists because we wanted -- just as they
4 wanted there to be total freedom from all parties, we didn't
5 want any of the individuals, whether the Forest Service,
6 whether Ducks Unlimited or University of Idaho, to have any
7 influence other than what the scientists felt was the best
8 viable habitat restoration projects.
9 MR. FRINK: Okay. What was the cost of preparing the
10 three scientists' Waterfowl Habitat Restoration Plan?
11 DR. REID: I don't know the total cost because I don't
12 know what Ratcliff or Drewien received in a charge. I
13 believe that the total available monies was about 100 K,
14 which included all the paperwork copy. It included all the
15 subcontractors who assisted in our preparation.
16 MR. FRINK: Okay. In response to a question earlier
17 from Ms. Goldsmith I believe you stated that the three
18 scientists did not consider cost as an element in developing
19 their recommendations.
20 Am I correct in understanding that normally Ducks
21 Unlimited has a reputation as a very practical-minded,
22 cost-effective promoter of waterfowl habitat restoration?
23 DR. REID: Absolutely.
24 MR. FRINK: So in the projects that Ducks Unlimited
25 itself proposes, I assume the cost would be a major
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1 consideration?
2 DR. REID: Absolutely.
3 MR. FRINK: In your experience with Ducks Unlimited
4 have there been any projects that were rejected on the basis
5 of cost?
6 DR. REID: Absolutely.
7 MR. FRINK: Let's see, I have a question now that
8 refers back to the testimony you gave in 1993 and I'll give
9 you a copy of it.
10 DR. REID: Oh, man. Thank you.
11 MR. FRINK: Now, this is the transcript out of the
12 hearings conducted on December 14th, 1993. I call your
13 attention to page 27 of the hearing transcript -- or, excuse
14 me, page 26 of the hearing transcript. I'm going to read
15 you a portion of that. Beginning on line 12 there was a
16 question -- there was a panel that included yourself and
17 Dr. Stine and the question was:
18 "What was the cost per acre of the
19 DeChambeau project?" And this was the cost
20 estimated at that time.
21 You indicated: "I don't have my
22 calculator." Dr. Stine volunteered that it was
23 "Thirteen thousand dollars per acre, and at the
24 prices given by Dr. Reid."
25 And then you stated: "We typically don't
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1 get involved in anything that costs over a
2 thousand dollars an acre. Most of our projects
3 are done for about $100 an acre and with our
4 investitures with partners, typically Ducks
5 Unlimited, paid about $33 dollars per acre."
6 Now, I want to call your attention, also, to your
7 testimony -- go over to page 34 of the same transcript and
8 there was a question asked you beginning on line 22 of page
9 34. The questioner, I believe it was Mr. Dodge, stated:
10 "The last line of questions is to Dr. Reid.
11 Now, you have told us that the DeChambeau
12 project that you are involved with which
13 preceded any argument about Mono Lake elevation,
14 the DeChambeau project is expensive?"
15 And the answer was: Yes, relatively
16 expensive for the kind of projects we do. There
17 are people out there, and mainly private
18 consultants, who would try and sell you
19 something for more, but what we do and try to do
20 is fairly inexpensive."
21 Now, my question -- I guess I'm somewhat confused. If
22 Los Angeles had asked the three scientists to consider
23 economic feasibility, would the three scientists'
24 recommendations on proposed waterfowl habitat restoration
25 programs have been different?
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1 DR. REID: Now, I'm going to talk -- you know, neither
2 Tom Ratcliff or Rod Drewien are here. So in many ways I'm
3 going to talk from my standpoint as one of the scientists.
4 We believed that the complex of wetlands that was
5 created through DeChambeau, through the riparian restoration
6 by DeChambeau, through the County Ponds and through the
7 Black Point Scrape would create one of the best habitats out
8 of the landscape; and when we had originally constructed
9 what we thought were the elements of the restorations
10 throughout the wetland basin, we asked two consultants to
11 come in. They were Dr. Lawrence Smith of Texas Tech and
12 Gary Zahm of the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Both have
13 extensive experience in the Great Basin.
14 Showing them all the variety of potential restoration
15 projects that we saw, those two individuals agreed that this
16 would be one of the best restoration areas in the Basin and
17 we suggested that the cost would be very, very high; but
18 they suggested based on the fact that you have very few
19 options in the Basin, that its cost is worth the project and
20 our feelings fit the same mode.
21 The cost breaker -- the cost for the project is high,
22 but based on the fact that you have very few options in
23 relation to where you can put fresh water habitat out on the
24 landscape, we felt that it was a reasonable project.
25 MR. FRINK: Is there any indication that the amount of
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1 waterfowl habitat right now at Mono Lake is a limiting
2 factor?
3 DR. REID: I would have to say "yes" because if you
4 look at what habitat existed in the late '40's -- or what
5 populations existed in the late '40's and compare that to
6 habitat loss and population levels in the Central Valley of
7 California, even though you've lost 96 percent of the
8 wetland habitat in California, you haven't seen the
9 precipitous dive in the population as you've seen in the
10 Mono Basin.
11 MR. FRINK: Is the habitat that currently exists in
12 the Mono Basin being overutilized by waterfowl?
13 DR. REID: Overutilized?
14 MR. FRINK: Yes.
15 DR. REID: How do you mean?
16 MR. FRINK: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but a few
17 year ago during the drought my understanding was that there
18 were a number of wildlife refuges that were short on water,
19 short on area. The birds were crammed in and there was a
20 real problem with disease amongst the birds.
21 Is that accurate?
22 DR. REID: There was real potential problem with
23 disease. There was some disease outbreak. It was amazingly
24 fortunate there wasn't a real cholera outbreak at the time,
25 that's correct.
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1 MR. FRINK: Are there any existing areas of the
2 waterfowl habitat in the Mono Basin that as a waterfowl
3 specialist you believe are overcrowded?
4 DR. REID: Currently?
5 MR. FRINK: Yes.
6 DR. REID: No.
7 MR. FRINK: That's all the questions I have.
8 Jerry?
9 MR. JOHNS: (Shaking of the head.)
10 MR. FRINK: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Canaday.
12 ---oOo---
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY STAFF:
15 MR. CANADAY: Starting out with Dr. Reid, a little bit
16 about historic waterfowl numbers.
17 You're familiar with Mr. Dombrowski's waterfowl
18 counts?
19 DR. REID: Yes.
20 MR. CANADAY: Approximately what was the date or what
21 year those occurred?
22 DR. REID: I believe it was 1948.
23 MR. CANADAY: And Mr. Dombrowski found what area of
24 the lake or what area of the waterfowl habitat around Mono
25 Lake was the heaviliest used and concentrated the largest
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1 number of waterfowl?
2 DR. REID: It was the areas in association to -- in
3 the lake in association to the deltas of the various streams
4 and in his map he shows Rush Creek having about 45 percent
5 of the waterfowl habitat and if you take Rush Creek to
6 DeChambeau, that area on the west side was about 75 percent
7 of the waterfowl that used the lake. The other important
8 area was the Simons Springs area.
9 MR. CANADAY: And in his assessment do you recall any
10 abundance numbers for the Mill Creek area?
11 DR. REID: They show around Mill Creek in that lower
12 area I think about five percent; but, again, Mill Creek at
13 that time in 1948 was fairly degraded because it had already
14 been degraded beginning at the turn of the century when
15 water was diverted for power and for grazing.
16 MR. CANADAY: So the Mill Creek complex at the time of
17 the City of Los Angeles' diversions was not an area heavily
18 used by waterfowl; is that correct?
19 DR. REID: It certainly was not used as much as the
20 other tributaries. I can't say that it wasn't used, but
21 certainly not to the level that the other tributaries were.
22 MR. CANADAY: The area around Rush Creek, which
23 according to Dombrowski had the largest concentration of
24 waterfowl, what was the complex there that you would, in
25 your opinion, attribute to that heavy use by waterfowl?
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1 DR. REID: I believe what you had there was you had a
2 very flat, deltaic system that allowed the birds to both
3 move into the delta itself, to gain water and then to move
4 back into the lake to forage. You had a very large
5 hypopycnal region that had the mix of the fresh water with
6 the saline habitat, and then you had the really excellent
7 bottomland component that rose up into -- the riparian
8 bottomland that rose up into the creek itself. Within the
9 bottomlands you had back waters, you had some meadow habitat
10 and that's the kinds of complexes that I think we want to
11 see today.
12 MR. CANADAY: Were there any manmade habitats in
13 the --
14 DR. REID: Yeah, Dombrowski had -- and apparently this
15 began in the late '40's. He had made some ponds that he had
16 and hunted for waterfowl. They were fairly small, though.
17 We have a map of those in the appendix document.
18 I can't remember the total acreage -- here we are
19 right here. He had two ponds that were 12 acres total in
20 size and then another pond that was 22 acres in size and a
21 third pond over to the right which he doesn't have an
22 acreage on.
23 MR. CANADAY: But isn't one of those ponds where he
24 did part of his ocular estimates of the numbers and that was
25 on those manmade ponds?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. REID: Right, and that was mainly for the
2 breakdown of the species composition.
3 MR. CANADAY: And, again, the main species as far as
4 number of individuals of the population was northern
5 shoveler; is that correct?
6 DR. REID: Correct, with ruddy ducks being number two.
7 MR. CANADAY: In your expectation of the kind of use
8 that would occur in the Mill Creek -- at least in the
9 bottomlands and in the back waters in the marsh, would that
10 be primarily a northern shoveler habitat?
11 DR. REID: I believe that what you'd find in the delta
12 and in the mouth of the area would be primarily shovelers,
13 gadwall and ruddy ducks. As you move up into the creek
14 you're going to shift from those species. Shovelers will go
15 up a fair way, but you're going to shift as you get up into
16 that riparian zone of more green-winged teal and mallard.
17 MR. CANADAY: Are you familiar with a report -- oh,
18 you must be, you cited it as a document -- but a report done
19 by Stine in 1995 on historic and future waterfowl habitat at
20 Mono Lake?
21 DR. REID: I am.
22 MR. CANADAY: And what was Dr. Stine's conclusion
23 about current habitat and future habitat as far as the
24 different waterfowl habitat types?
25 DR. REID: One of his statements, I believe, was that
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1 he felt there was not an overabundance of open water habitat
2 and he saw the hypopycnal habitat as being really critical
3 and good quality hypopycnal, good quality springs as being
4 real critical for waterfowl habitat, the lack of stream
5 habitat as he described it.
6 MR. CANADAY: Uh-huh. And that habitat at Mill Creek
7 would be found where?
8 DR. REID: That would be on the outside of the delta,
9 that increased hypopycnal zone.
10 MR. CANADAY: Okay. Do you agree with the findings of
11 that report?
12 DR. REID: I agree to the extent that I believe
13 hypopycnal is an important component of why waterfowl are
14 going to use that habitat, but it's my assessment and that
15 assessment of the other two scientists in this report that
16 the critical element is the complex of habitats that are
17 available. In so improving the hypopycnal zone, you improve
18 the complex of the habitats. So we both come up with the
19 same result. We're arguing apples and oranges in terms of
20 what the birds are using.
21 MR. CANADAY: When you prepared your recommendation on
22 Mill Creek -- and I thought I heard you testify earlier that
23 your focus was strictly on waterfowl; is that correct?
24 DR. REID: Right.
25 MR. CANADAY: So you did not consider any of the
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1 habitat types that occur in Mill or Wilson Creek for other
2 wildlife species?
3 DR. REID: Correct.
4 MR. CANADAY: Okay. I'll ask you a hypothetical.
5 Your recommendation or your opinion on the success of the
6 rewatering of Mill Creek is based on -- and this is the
7 hypothetical -- that the Forest Service, in fact, donates
8 their right for the rewatering; is that correct?
9 DR. REID: Yes.
10 MR. CANADAY: What would your opinion be of the
11 waterfowl habitat that would accrue if, in fact, the Forest
12 Service decided for their own reasons not to dedicate that
13 water right to Mill Creek?
14 DR. REID: Then I'd have to do a real evaluation based
15 on what water was dedicated, whether it was just LADWP's or
16 extended water rights of the Conway Ranch in addition.
17 MR. CANADAY: So your assessment of the values that
18 may be obtained at Mill Creek could be considerably
19 different or possibly different?
20 DR. REID: Possibly different. I'd want to look at
21 the water rights and the availability of the water.
22 MR. CANADAY: I think you testified that we're having
23 some good water years for waterfowl, that's correct?
24 DR. REID: That's correct.
25 MR. CANADAY: Do you have any data to suggest that
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 we're seeing increases currently at Bridgeport or Crowley
2 Reservoir of waterfowl use?
3 DR. REID: I did not personally survey either of those
4 locations, but I know someone who hunts Bridgeport that said
5 that populations were high this fall on the Bridgeport
6 Reservoir.
7 MR. CANADAY: Are you aware of any estimates of the
8 use on Mono Lake this fall?
9 DR. REID: I have heard from people that hunted at
10 Mono Lake that populations were down in areas at Mono Lake.
11 MR. CANADAY: Based on your testimony today, it's
12 still your recommendation that there are opportunities for
13 scrapes beyond the Black Point Scrape?
14 DR. REID: Yes, that's correct, provided that you
15 monitor the Black Point site and look at habitat use.
16 MR. CANADAY: And what you have suggested is these
17 potential scrapes at Simons Springs would be in areas that
18 ultimately would be inundated by the lake as it rises
19 according D-1631; is that correct?
20 DR. REID: Yes, that's what the scientists -- that's
21 what we as scientists have reported.
22 MR. CANADAY: So any disturbance that would be created
23 there because of the development of these would be ephemeral
24 in any case?
25 DR. REID: That's correct.
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1 MR. CANADAY: On to monitoring. You've recommended
2 that in the best case you would recommend two annual aerial
3 photographs or sessions or monitoring be undertaken, one
4 during the peak flow which would be approximately when, in
5 your opinion?
6 DR. REID: Would probably be July.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: And that would be looking at
8 numbers that would be nesting -- potential nesting birds,
9 then, rather than migrants?
10 DR. REID: No, my assessment of the aerial surveys is
11 for -- for the two I was discussing quality of habitat. So
12 to take the photographs. The surveys that I would suggest
13 for waterfowl would be once a year. That would take place
14 late October or early November.
15 MR. CANADAY: So potentially that second photograph
16 survey you could double up then?
17 DR. REID: Exactly, yeah.
18 MR. CANADAY: Okay.
19 DR. REID: Because I would recommend doing this all
20 elements of a fixed-wing aircraft.
21 MR. CANADAY: How much of a day do you think that
22 would take?
23 DR. REID: Well, I think you could do -- I think you
24 could count Crowley, Bridgeport, Mono Lake and take your
25 pictures and be under a full day.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. CANADAY: Under a full day. So if you had a plane
2 and you were in the air anyway, you could do all three of
3 those within a day?
4 DR. REID: Absolutely.
5 MR. CANADAY: Okay. Would any of the pastures on
6 Conway, Thompson Ranch, upper/lower, do they provide
7 potential late winter/early spring forage for geese that
8 would be important?
9 DR. REID: They do, but in terms of a larger picture
10 for the potential of habitat that one could obtain at Mill
11 Creek, it's real minor usage.
12 MR. CANADAY: Well, I wasn't asking if it was relative
13 as trade-off but as far as habitat, that provides important
14 habitat for geese?
15 DR. REID: Could, yeah.
16 MR. CANADAY: Your recommendations on the reopening of
17 distributaries in Rush Creek, is it your opinion that LA has
18 adopted that in total?
19 DR. REID: Again, I was -- in the distributaries of?
20 MR. CANADAY: Rush Creek.
21 DR. REID: Rush Creek, yes, it is my understanding,
22 especially that a number of our distributaries were very
23 similar to the fisheries ones, and so it probably was
24 described in that plan.
25 MR. CANADAY: Okay. Well, there is a difference.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 What was recommended in the fisheries plan as far as
2 distributaries was different than -- as far as particular
3 distributaries was different than some that you had
4 suggested in your waterfowl plan, if my memory serves me
5 well.
6 DR. REID: That's true, but I think the additional
7 ones were listed in LADWP's plan.
8 MR. CANADAY: Getting back to the monitoring and the
9 aerial photographs either for vegetation or for waterfowl,
10 you certainly believe that it's important for annual
11 monitoring of waterfowl numbers, correct?
12 DR. REID: Yes I do.
13 MR. CANADAY: Is it absolutely necessary, in your
14 opinion, that you have annual documentation of vegetation
15 change through aerial photographs?
16 DR. REID: I think based on the tremendous rise in
17 lake levels over a short period where I think we're looking
18 now at 35 to 40 percent of the lake rising in this short
19 time frame, I think an annual photographic reference would
20 be really critical.
21 MR. CANADAY: If, in fact, the Mono Lake achieves its
22 typically annual high level in the fall, then if they were
23 going to do waterfowl counts by aerial photography then if
24 you doubled up, then you would get that by that one single
25 pass then, correct?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. REID: Uh-huh.
2 MR. CANADAY: So you might possibly say that then the
3 peak flow might not be -- period might not be necessary
4 then?
5 DR. REID: I think at the time frame as the lake is
6 rising it's really worthwhile to gather those data sets in
7 that an evaluation of where this ephemeral wetlands exists
8 is important in trying to judge some kind of adaptive
9 management in terms of how these various areas are changing.
10 I would recommend until the lake reaches some kind of
11 stable condition that you probably want to take two flights.
12 MR. CANADAY: Okay.
13 DR. REID: And you'd only have to have a half a day
14 flight for the photography during the earlier period.
15 MR. CANADAY: Because you're just advocating Mono Lake
16 and not Bridgeport Reservoir?
17 DR. REID: Right, right. Yeah, I'm just advocating
18 taking the photographs at Mono.
19 MR. CANADAY: Mr. Shuford, earlier in your testimony
20 you stated -- or discussed about the Northern American
21 Waterfowl Management Plan and in that plan it has general
22 criteria that is to be used in -- kind of broad based in
23 that plan; is that correct?
24 MR. SHUFORD: That's correct. The Northern American
25 Waterfowl Management Plan is broken down into various joint
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1 ventures, which are certain geographic areas which they
2 identify as being very important to waterfowl; and they've
3 come up with individual management plans for those joint
4 ventures, the Central Valley of California being one, and
5 within those they do, you know, set population or habitat
6 goals.
7 MR. CANADAY: Okay. Now, do you believe if the Board
8 was to direct the City to look within that plan, that they
9 could develop criteria that would be consistent with other
10 waterfowl management areas?
11 MR. SHUFORD: Well, it's on a very different scale. I
12 think they would want to talk to the people that have
13 developed these kind of plans and talk specifically about
14 Mono Lake. I don't think they'd just want to read one of
15 these reports and, you know, come up with criteria based on
16 those reports. I think they'd want to get expertise -- you
17 know, a different scale than was done at those joint
18 ventures.
19 MR. CANADAY: But you think that would be instructive,
20 though, to develop criteria specific for Mono Lake?
21 MR. SHUFORD: I think it would be definitely
22 constructive. You know, how easy it would be to -- you
23 know, very rigorous standards I don't know. I think there
24 could be, you know, room for some subjective criteria as
25 well, but it seems real crucial to have to measure the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 restoration effort against.
2 MR. CANADAY: Do you have any time frames of how --
3 I'd like an answer from both of you -- on the type of
4 monitoring -- one, let's talk about the aerial photography
5 for waterfowl numbers.
6 MR. SHUFORD: One point I need to clarify. I think
7 the aerial counts wouldn't be by photography. I think these
8 would be done -- you know, visual counts of what's out
9 there.
10 MR. CANADAY: Just ocular estimates?
11 MR. SHUFORD: Right, that's usually how those are done
12 and you definitely want to do it during the rise of the
13 lake. If there's a lag period between the time it takes,
14 you know, the birds to colonize the lake after the lake has
15 reached, you know, quote unquote "equilibrium," you would
16 want to continue after that to see if the birds are still
17 taking advantage of these newly restored wetlands.
18 MR. CANADAY: Dr. Reid?
19 DR. REID: The scientists' plan calls for taking the
20 waterfowl surveys and we call for bi-annual. As you can see
21 in my written testimony here I call for annual surveys, and
22 we recommended that it be taken to the point where the lake
23 reached its median lake level of 6392 and then 20 years
24 afterwards so that you go through a full cycle of
25 continental drought and the wet period. Continentally it's
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 about a 20-year cycle. So then you're looking at population
2 levels through that whole cycle period.
3 MR. CANADAY: And your recommendation for the
4 vegetation monitoring?
5 DR. REID: What I would call as vegetation/wetland
6 area monitoring, and that's with the photographs, and I
7 think it's necessary to take those through the time period
8 when you have the median lake level to 92 and then go beyond
9 that at least to some period to see, you know, how much
10 change you're incurring annually.
11 MR. CANADAY: Mr. Shuford, you talked about GIS
12 mapping of habitat.
13 MR. SHUFORD: Yes.
14 MR. CANADAY: Are you aware of any current GIS
15 database that already exists on the Mono Basin?
16 MR. SHUFORD: Not specifically on the Mono Basin. I
17 know the Inyo National Forest does have a GIS system, but
18 I'm not familiar with what kind of detail is available for
19 the Mono Basin.
20 MR. CANADAY: So you didn't have a particular existing
21 GIS that we could overlay new layers on?
22 MR. SHUFORD: Well, I mean, I didn't propose the GIS.
23 I mean, I just think it is a good thing to do. As I say,
24 I'm not really sure of the details of the Inyo National
25 Forest current GIS. I am familiar with some of their work
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 down in the Glass Mountain area because I've been working
2 with them and other people on a GIS system down there for a
3 totally different purpose.
4 MR. CANADAY: Dr. Reid, this is my final question.
5 You testified about the establishment of a trust. Could you
6 explain kind of how you would see that coming about and kind
7 of some detail of what you had in mind?
8 DR. REID: My feeling is there seems to be some level
9 of distrust among various parties in this whole effort to do
10 the restoration and to then monitor the restoration. I
11 think it would be worthwhile to have the Board set up a
12 trust in which there was a certain amount of money set aside
13 and interest from that money and maybe some principal was
14 used to fund the evaluation and monitoring.
15 I believe that a scientific committee could be set up
16 by the Board to figure out who is going to do the evaluation
17 monitoring of various aspects and make the stipulation that
18 nobody on that board can do that monitoring or evaluation so
19 you're not funding people to do their own work but, rather,
20 you find people with a background in wetlands and waterfowl,
21 in monitoring these kinds of elements and ask them to look
22 for the experts that are out there that can best do the job
23 at the most cost-effective fashion and that takes it out of
24 the hands of all parties in relation to who does the
25 monitoring.
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1 MR. CANADAY: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, Mr. Canaday,
3 and the rest of the staff.
4 Let's see, are there questions from the Board Members?
5 Mr. Brown.
6 ---oOo---
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY BOARD MEMBERS:
9 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: Dr. Reid, did I understand you
10 correctly when you stated that the waterfowl habitat is not
11 crowded?
12 DR. REID: Right, the waterfowl habitat currently is
13 not crowded. If you look at where the birds are in the
14 Basin, there's very low populations and there's not huge
15 concentrations that exist at this time.
16 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: Are the birds healthy?
17 DR. REID: I can't answer that question. I have
18 not -- I've never picked up a dead one.
19 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: Do you have an estimate on what
20 the utilization of the habitat might be today?
21 DR. REID: The level of utilization?
22 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: Right.
23 DR. REID: Well, it was estimated in the EIR that
24 there was somewhere between 10 to 15,000 total birds --
25 total waterfowl ducks that visited Mono Lake on an annual
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 basis. I have no reason to believe that that number has
2 increased beyond that and it might be a little bit less.
3 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: Then the final question here: If
4 we build more habitat for the waterfowl, will more birds
5 come?
6 DR. REID: Well, I think the element is not will we
7 build more habitat, but will we build better habitat and
8 will we build the best habitat? And I think that's
9 illustrated in what you look at what some folks were calling
10 marsh habitat over at Simons Springs. That is not viable
11 waterfowl habitat in its current condition.
12 It's heavily vegetated. It may or may not show water
13 and, yet, at the same time if you set that area with a
14 sequential burn and open up some of those habitats, it may
15 be readily used. I believe that the projects that are
16 presented in the scientists' report give some quality
17 projects that can be done in the Basin.
18 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: I like your question better so
19 let me restate it. If we build better habitat, will more
20 birds come?
21 DR. REID: Yes, I believe they will.
22 BOARD MEMBER BROWN: Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right.
24 Any redirect, Mr. Dodge?
25 MR. DODGE: Oh, I just have a few I'm sure.
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Could you perhaps give me an
2 estimate of how much time you think you need, sir, so that
3 way I can put an appropriate limitation on the recross so
4 we'll all be treated fairly.
5 MR. DODGE: I hope to finish in ten minutes.
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Let's say ten minutes,
7 then, unless -- are you giving yourself enough time there,
8 Mr. Dodge?
9 MR. DODGE: I'm very bad at estimates. I don't have a
10 whole lot of questions.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Just to be safe, let's call it 15
12 and the same for recross if Mr. Johns will make note of
13 that.
14 MR. JOHNS: Done.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you, sir.
16 ---oOo---
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO LAKE COMMITTEE:
19 MR. DODGE: Dr. Reid, you had various questions about
20 the cost of counting ponds, and I understood in the end that
21 you testified that you felt the project was cost-effective,
22 correct?
23 DR. REID: That's correct, because I don't think there
24 are very many options out at the Basin.
25 MR. DODGE: Is the Mono Basin -- is it fair to say
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 that's part of the Great Basin?
2 DR. REID: Yes, that's true. It's managed -- in terms
3 of the flyway concept it's managed in that fashion.
4 MR. DODGE: And what experience do you have in terms
5 of restoration in the Great Basin?
6 DR. REID: I have fairly extensive experience from the
7 east to the west, projects in probably six of those states.
8 MR. DODGE: What comments can you make about typical
9 cost per acre on restoration projects in the Great Basin?
10 DR. REID: They tend to be more expensive than what
11 you find in the rest of the United States because you
12 typically are looking at artificial water sources. When you
13 look at pumping sources or ground water sources on any
14 project, that is going to be the most expensive project
15 you're gonna look at.
16 MR. DODGE: You told us about the five distributary
17 channels that could potentially be rewatered in Mill Creek.
18 Can you tell the Water Board the approximate length of
19 channel that would be rewatered?
20 DR. REID: I believe it's about 5300 linear feet.
21 MR. DODGE: Can you give the Board any estimate as to
22 how difficult it would be to rewater these five
23 distributaries?
24 DR. REID: We believe that three of them can be done
25 fairly simply. The last one, "E," we suggested you'll have
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 to put an additional culvert under County Ponds, but the
2 advantage there is then it flows into another channel. It
3 gives you a whole other channel down into the delta. So I
4 believe that all five of them can be done without too much
5 difficulty.
6 MR. DODGE: A question for both of you at the risk of
7 delving into this question of whether alkali fly should be
8 part of the waterfowl monitoring program. There seems to
9 have been a fair amount of dispute on that.
10 I would just ask each of you to tell me, you know,
11 what are we really fighting about? Are we talking about an
12 expensive item? Are we talking about doing original
13 research? Are we talking about something pretty simple?
14 What is it that each of you proposes?
15 MR. SHUFORD: I can't speak to the exact cost of this,
16 but I have talked to Dr. Herbst about it and the monitoring
17 that he would do is monitoring, you know, based on this 1991
18 to 1995, you know, setup or protocol that he has developed.
19 He said it will be a lot easier to do and a lot less costly
20 than the current brine shrimp monitoring that's going on,
21 but I don't have a dollar figure for you.
22 MR. DODGE: Dr. Reid?
23 DR. REID: As a scientist putting forward this
24 document, what we're calling for is evaluation of
25 monitoring. We're not calling for research. We hope that
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 there will be a large number of research projects that will
2 be put forward by universities, et cetera, that will be paid
3 for outside of this whole process by other organizations and
4 institutions; but the brine fly sampling is an important
5 evaluation monitoring component for carnivores such as
6 northern shoveler in terms of looking at how they
7 potentially might use the Basin.
8 MR. DODGE: My question, sir, does not go to its
9 importance, because I do not want to get into this battle
10 with Dr. White.
11 My question to you simply is: How extensive a program
12 are we talking about? How much money a year?
13 DR. REID: It's not very extensive. My understanding
14 is it's going to be one or two sampling periods across the
15 entire year so -- and then, you know, you do an evaluation
16 in the laboratory, counts, a writeup. I don't know, ten,
17 fifteen thousand dollars. I don't know.
18 MR. DODGE: Now, there's been various questions to
19 you, sir, about Dr. Jehl and I have a couple, also.
20 Mr. Kavounas testified to certain conversations he had
21 with Dr. Jehl after receiving your draft report, and as a
22 result of those conversations with Dr. Jehl Mr. Kavounas
23 made certain assessments as to whether portions of your
24 report would be accepted or not accepted.
25 My question to you, sir, is: Did Dr. Jehl call you to
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1 discuss aspects of your report during this time frame after
2 the report was submitted?
3 DR. REID: No, he did not.
4 MR. DODGE: You've testified that you changed your
5 proposal with respect to County Ponds to make it contingent
6 on artesian flow. Is that correct, sir?
7 DR. REID: That's correct.
8 MR. DODGE: Okay. Do you have an opinion as to
9 whether it's likely or unlikely that you can get artesian
10 flow for the County Ponds?
11 DR. REID: We believe that it's likely that you can
12 get artesian flow.
13 MR. DODGE: What is the basis of that opinion?
14 DR. REID: The basis is artesian flows that are
15 present at Black Point and an understanding of some of the
16 logs of other wells that have been drilled in the area and
17 that it may be a fairly deep well, but we believe that
18 artesian flow is possible.
19 MR. DODGE: Do you plan to make additional efforts to
20 get artesian flow at the DeChambeau project?
21 DR. REID: Yes. The U.S. Forest Service has discussed
22 with us the potential of taking the existing well that we
23 have about 300 feet already drilled and going further down
24 so you don't have to pay for the initial 300 feet and
25 looking for artesian flow there.
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1 Now, the disadvantage of this is that if you don't
2 find it you spent the money drilling the well and didn't get
3 anything, but the Forest Service is very interested in
4 seeing if artesian flow cannot be received.
5 MR. DODGE: Okay. I have a couple questions about
6 Wilson Creek. I'm limiting them to waterfowl potential.
7 Now, you talked about the so-called "Grand Canyon" and
8 as I understood your testimony it had little waterfowl
9 value. Let me go upstream a little bit with you to the
10 Conway Ranch. Do you have an opinion as to whether there is
11 potential waterfowl habitat at the Conway Ranch?
12 DR. REID: My experience on the Conway Ranch is
13 limited. It is reflective of one fixed wing flight and one
14 helicopter flight tangential view, but based on what we saw
15 from those aerial views and similar experience in the Great
16 Basin I do not believe that you will have exceedingly good
17 waterfowl habitat in the Conway Ranch.
18 MR. DODGE: Do you think that has much potential --
19 the Conway Ranch, that is, much potential for a restoration
20 program for waterfowl habitat?
21 DR. REID: One could create seasonal wetlands on the
22 Conway Ranch, but it would not be as valuable as either the
23 DeChambeau/County Ponds complex or the Mill Creek complex.
24 MR. DODGE: Now, going down to the hypopycnal layers,
25 right now as I understand it the water -- or the great bulk
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1 of it is sent down Wilson Creek and presumably creates a
2 hypopycnal layer at the mouth of Wilson Creek, correct?
3 DR. REID: That's correct.
4 MR. DODGE: Okay. Now, under at least your proposal
5 the water would go down Mill Creek and would presumably
6 create a hypopycnal layer at Mill Creek, correct?
7 DR. REID: That's correct.
8 MR. DODGE: Do you have an opinion as to the
9 comparative waterfowl habitat values of those two hypopycnal
10 layers?
11 DR. REID: Yes, I believe especially as you reopen
12 that E Channel in Mill Creek you have a broader delta and I
13 believe you will have a broader hypopycnal zone created at
14 Mill Creek and that will provide better waterfowl habitat.
15 MR. DODGE: You were asked questions by one staff
16 member to assume hypothetically that the U.S. Forest Service
17 would not contribute its water right to Mill Creek, and I
18 want you to make that same assumption but assume that the
19 U.S. Forest Service water right only kicks in after 45 cfs
20 has been taken by others.
21 Under that assumption, do you have an opinion as to
22 whether restoration of Mill Creek without the U.S. Forest
23 Service right would create good waterfowl habitat?
24 DR. REID: Right. If you could obtain the full water
25 flow with a -- either overflow at Lundy or an improved
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1 return ditch system which would allow you to have those kind
2 of flows in the spring and summer and then high flows up to
3 11 cfs in the fall, that would give you good quality
4 waterfowl habitat.
5 MR. DODGE: I'm assuming, sir, that the return ditch
6 has been upgraded so that it will take --
7 DR. REID: Yes.
8 MR. DODGE: Assume it will take the full 70 cfs that
9 comes out of Lundy Powerhouse essentially.
10 DR. REID: That I did.
11 MR. DODGE: But assume further that the U.S. Forest
12 Service has a water right. After the first 45 cfs has been
13 taken assume it refuses to send the water down to Mill
14 Creek.
15 DR. REID: Uh-huh.
16 MR. DODGE: How big a problem is that in terms of your
17 proposal for Mill Creek?
18 DR. REID: Well, you still have potentially with the
19 water right the fall water. What that potentially reduces
20 is a higher spring/summer flush, and so in that case it
21 reduces some of the value but it still has the high fall
22 value.
23 MR. DODGE: But the spring/summer flush, as you put
24 it, would be up to 45 cfs under my scenario, correct?
25 DR. REID: It would, it would, but it would not be
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1 higher under your scenario.
2 MR. DODGE: Okay. But 45 cfs is substantially higher
3 than DWP proposes, isn't it?
4 DR. REID: That's correct.
5 MR. DODGE: And would that 45 cfs have value as
6 compared --
7 DR. REID: Absolutely.
8 MR. DODGE: Let me finish my question -- as compared
9 to DWP's proposal?
10 DR. REID: Yes.
11 MR. DODGE: Thank you. Now, you talked about scrapes
12 on the -- as I understood it on the east side at lake
13 elevations below 6392 feet and Mr. Canaday got you to agree
14 that once the lake rose those scrapes would be ephemeral in
15 terms of their effects.
16 Is there any potential on the east side for -- let me
17 back up. Assuming that the scrape is put in on a test basis
18 at Black Point and is effective or whatever the criteria for
19 effectiveness is, we don't have to worry about it. Assume
20 that everyone thinks it worked well. Are there potentials
21 on the east side for scrapes at lake elevations above 6392?
22 DR. REID: There is potential for scrapes on either
23 the east or west side above that elevation.
24 MR. DODGE: In your opinion, should that be
25 considered?
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1 DR. REID: If you've gone through the process of
2 evaluating the Black Point Scrape and it's very valuable, if
3 the parties agree that it's valuable and if the parties that
4 are responsible for that land agree that scrapes should take
5 place, yes, I do.
6 MR. DODGE: Thank you, and I have no further
7 questions.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, Mr. Dodge.
9 For your information, that took 12 minutes. So that was a
10 pretty good estimate on your part, sir.
11 MR. DODGE: If you're trying to corner me into making
12 estimates based on the fact I got one right --
13 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I was just admiring your skill.
14 All right. Let's see, on recross, Ms. Goldsmith.
15 MS. GOLDSMITH: I believe that I could shorten this up
16 considerably if I could have five minutes to talk with my
17 staff here.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Five full minutes?
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: Yeah, probably.
20 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Would that come out of your fifteen
21 so that you'll stay within ten?
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: Well, probably not, but I'll try.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Would there be any problem with
24 going on to the next -- Mr. Johns.
25 MR. JOHNS: I was going to say do you want to take a
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1 break?
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let's see, when did we start? Did
3 we start at 12:30? It's probably just as good a time as any
4 to take a break.
5 MS. GOLDSMITH: And I'm happy if it's only five.
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Pardon me?
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: I'd be happy if it were limited to
8 five minutes.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let's take a 10-minute break. That
10 way you can have a five-minute break.
11 (Whereupon a recess was taken.)
12 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Goldsmith.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: Hi.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let me just say one thing very
15 briefly. We've got a bit of a scheduling problem for
16 Drs. Ridenhour and Trush. We had scheduled today with the
17 actual intent of getting to them today and their
18 availability after today is going to be limited in the sense
19 that it's going to be quite a while before they can get
20 back. So we'd really like to try and get through to them --
21 get finished with them today, which is maybe a tall order
22 seeing as how the Board Members have to leave at 4:30.
23 If need be, I could come back for a couple hours this
24 evening, say about 6:30 to 8:30. I'd like to -- I'm sure
25 we'd all like to avoid that if possible. Let's just see if
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1 we can be really crisp in our redirect, our recross and even
2 our cross and we might get through it all by 4:30, which is
3 probably high hopes; but, anyway, just so you'll all be
4 mindful of that.
5 How much time are you going to need do you think?
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: Well, I hope I can do it in ten.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I'm sorry, I'm getting ahead of
8 myself here. We already went through that. You're entitled
9 to fifteen minutes.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: Yes, but I will try to keep it short.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Okay.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: And I hope that the witnesses will
13 help me in keeping it short.
14 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes. The same admonition goes to
15 the witnesses, too, because it's important that people get a
16 chance to get up here and schedules are limited. So please
17 be very succinct. This is not a criticism. We know that
18 the witnesses are very knowledgeable, but please redouble
19 your efforts to give brief answers. Thank you.
20 ---oOo---
21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER:
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: First of all, I'd like to talk again
24 about aerial photographs.
25 As I understand it, you've proposed annual aerial
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1 photographs. I'll try to say that ten times real fast.
2 DR. REID: Yes.
3 MS. GOLDSMITH: At two times during the year, once
4 during high flow periods and once during waterfowl migration
5 periods?
6 DR. REID: No. We have proposed the --
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: No, I mean what you have proposed
8 because, as I understand it, your proposal is not the same
9 as -- and I'm interrupting again and I apologize -- is not
10 the same as the three consultants have proposed.
11 What is it that you are proposing?
12 DR. REID: What we propose is that you have one annual
13 survey of waterfowl and two photographs of the areas. So
14 during the -- the aerial photographs, one during the high
15 flow and one during the waterfowl period.
16 MS. GOLDSMITH: And if I'm not mistaken, that's two
17 aerial photographs?
18 DR. REID: Correct.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: And you want that every year?
20 DR. REID: Correct.
21 MS. GOLDSMITH: And the three consultants' report asks
22 for it every other year?
23 DR. REID: Correct.
24 MS. GOLDSMITH: Now, in making your own personal
25 recommendation what is the nature of the decisions that you
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1 think that will be made with this expanded base of
2 photographs?
3 DR. REID: Because the value of these photographs are
4 very high, not simply at the time they're taken but in the
5 future as reference levels to where various habitats were
6 available in relation to how birds responded.
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: So you foresee them as basically a
8 background database from which you can make adaptive
9 management decisions in the future?
10 DR. REID: I think they can be excellent reference
11 data.
12 MS. GOLDSMITH: That's you, that's clear.
13 I have a question about the restoration of Channel E
14 on Mill Creek, and I have to confess to you that I'm not as
15 familiar with the various channels of Mill Creek as you
16 probably are. Have you visited Channel E personally?
17 DR. REID: Yes, I have.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: And are you aware that that's not a
19 natural channel of Mill Creek?
20 DR. REID: I don't remember that in our discussions.
21 MS. GOLDSMITH: Was it ever discussed with you that
22 there used to be a culvert under the County Road at that
23 point and during high flow events in 1969 the culvert in the
24 road was blown out and the new channel created?
25 DR. REID: I have to admit that I don't remember the
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1 full discussions of those points, no.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: Do you have an estimate as to how much
3 water it would take to rewater Channel E?
4 DR. REID: No, we did not provide that here. I don't
5 provide that here, no.
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: Channel E is very wide; is it not?
7 DR. REID: That is wide, yes.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: And very cobbley?
9 DR. REID: I don't remember that part.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: Did you take a look at the other
11 channel that occurs at that point, which I'll refer to as
12 the original channel?
13 DR. REID: Yes, we did.
14 MS. GOLDSMITH: And does that have the same
15 characteristics as Channel E?
16 DR. REID: As I remember, it was not the same width as
17 Channel E. Channel E was wider.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Do you have an opinion as to whether
19 or not it would be a more efficient use of water to put it
20 down the original channel than the blowout channel in terms
21 of creating riparian vegetation?
22 DR. REID: We felt that if you expand both channels,
23 it gives you a broader delta as the stream enters the lake.
24 MS. GOLDSMITH: But it would be the same amount of
25 water; would it not?
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1 DR. REID: But it's entering at a broader area so that
2 the inner face of the stream and the lake is a greater area.
3 MS. GOLDSMITH: And do you have an opinion as to
4 whether or not it's the breadth of the hypopycnal layer or
5 the depth which is more important?
6 DR. REID: I would say it's the breadth more than the
7 depth.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: Now, to go on to the waterfowl
9 population this year at Mono Lake, you said that you have
10 not personally evaluated numbers of waterfowl at Mono Lake
11 this year as opposed to prior years; is that right?
12 DR. REID: That is correct.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: But that you've heard that it's down;
14 is that right?
15 DR. REID: I had one individual tell me that they had
16 hunted on Simons Springs in the past and the number of birds
17 at the Simons Springs site was lower this year than previous
18 years.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: And how many times had he been hunting
20 at Simons Springs this year?
21 DR. REID: He didn't say.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: Had he looked at the relative numbers
23 at other sites around the lake?
24 DR. REID: Absolutely not.
25 MS. GOLDSMITH: So as a scientist what level of
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1 credence would you put in that report as to the waterfowl at
2 Mono Lake being down this year?
3 DR. REID: That's the only report that I heard. So
4 when asked do I have any information as to the populations
5 at Mono Lake, that's what I responded to. In terms of does
6 that represent a good sample of all the critical areas of
7 Mono Lake, absolutely not.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: Going -- turning now to the goals.
9 There's been some suggestions, particularly from
10 Mr. Shuford, that it would be useful to set goals for
11 waterfowl population at Mono Lake.
12 I'd like to ask you isn't it true that DWP
13 specifically asked the consultants to establish some goals
14 for waterfowl populations?
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Excuse me for interrupting,
16 Ms. Goldsmith, but was that -- are you in an area that is
17 outside of the redirect? I don't recall that --
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: It's possible.
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I don't recall any discussion of
20 these goals in the -- please, somebody correct me if I'm
21 wrong.
22 MR. DODGE: If you're referring to my redirect, that's
23 correct, Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yeah. I want to remind all of the
25 attorneys and all of the parties that any questions in
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1 recross have to be directly related to the line of
2 questioning in redirect and that is in our -- if it's not in
3 our instructions, I think it's certainly in our regulations
4 and that's something that I had pointed out earlier. I
5 don't want the scope of recross expanded beyond where we're
6 allowed to go. So please focus your questions on the
7 questions and answers that occurred in redirect.
8 MS. GOLDSMITH: I will try. I'm not sure I can do
9 that. I took notes throughout most of the parties'
10 cross-examination recognizing that most of the parties here
11 are on the opposite side from DWP and I count on Mr. Dodge
12 to leap up.
13 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: And, please, by all means give me a
14 showing if there's a relationship that I've missed. I just
15 didn't see the relationship all that clear in my mind.
16 So please proceed.
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: Is there an objection to the question?
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: What was it again?
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: Didn't DWP ask the three consultants
20 to provide goals? If you want me to withdraw the question
21 as outside the scope, I will.
22 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, I think it's outside the
23 scope and I don't hear anybody making an argument to the
24 contrary and I just don't recall myself anything that could
25 be construed to be enough related. So why don't you drop
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1 that question and proceed.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. What about brine flies and
3 brine fly baseline data? I think that was covered in
4 redirect.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yeah, there was some questions
6 about monitoring brine flies.
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay, and I will direct this primarily
8 to Mr. Shuford and this concerns the baseline data for brine
9 flies.
10 MR. DODGE: With all due respect, the only question I
11 asked about brine flies was the approximate cost.
12 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: That is quite correct. There was
13 only a question as to the cost and Dr. Reid was the one, as
14 I recall, who answered it.
15 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. Dr. Reid, do you have any
16 particular basis for estimations of cost for the brine fly
17 sampling?
18 DR. REID: Just that in the past I have been involved
19 in aquatic invertebrate sampling and I am basing that on an
20 estimate of two days of field work, analysis in the lab and
21 then a writeup.
22 MS. GOLDSMITH: And what is your conception of brine
23 fly monitoring that would go into that cost estimate? What
24 kind of sampling?
25 DR. REID: It would be benthic sampling and sampling
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1 both at locations along the shore, in the pelagic zone and
2 then in the lake area where birds are seen foraging.
3 MS. GOLDSMITH: Okay. I'd like to ask the staff
4 whether or not a letter dated April 5th, 1996, to Mr. Edward
5 Anton from David B. Herbst is part of the record?
6 MR. FRINK: I believe it is included in Exhibit 1
7 or 2, which was the files of the Board on this proceeding.
8 If it was directed to Mr. Anton, I assume we have it in our
9 files.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: I'd like to ask Dr. Reid if he would
11 be surprised to find that Dr. Herbst had estimated the
12 annual cost of benthic ecosystem monitoring at $30,000,
13 approximately twice or three times what you had estimated?
14 DR. REID: No, I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a
15 field assistant that's assisting him in the fashion and
16 counting those floaters is pretty time-consuming. That's
17 possible.
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Is it possible that you both might be
19 wrong?
20 DR. REID: It's possible I could be wrong, absolutely.
21 MS. GOLDSMITH: It would be faster just to ask the
22 questions. I have a question about the likelihood of
23 obtaining artesian flow on Wilson Creek. Are you ruling it
24 was within?
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Artesian flow was discussed.
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1 MS. GOLDSMITH: Do you believe it would be less
2 likely -- can you tell me whether you think it would be less
3 likely or more likely to get artesian flow for the County
4 Pond complex if Wilson Creek is dewatered?
5 DR. REID: No, I can't. I don't have that expertise.
6 MS. GOLDSMITH: Was there any evaluation made of that
7 issue?
8 DR. REID: No.
9 MS. GOLDSMITH: I believe that's all I have that was
10 within the scope of the redirect.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you very much,
12 Ms. Goldsmith.
13 Let me repeat that I'm not picking on Ms. Goldsmith.
14 It's just that we do need to stay within the scope of the
15 redirect during recross so that we can bring this thing to
16 fruition and completion and get on with the implementation
17 of a plan. So I just remind, again, the attorneys to bear
18 that in mind.
19 All right, that will then take us -- let's see, is
20 Mr. Gipsman or anybody here representing the U.S. Forest
21 Service wishing to recross?
22 All right. Let's see, Mr. Russi is not here.
23 Ms. Bellomo is not here. Is Mr. Haselton here for
24 Arcularius Ranch? No recross there.
25 Mr. Ridenhour, Dr. Ridenhour?
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1 DR. RIDENHOUR: No.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Nothing from you.
3 Mr. Roos-Collins, anything?
4 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: No questions, Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Cahill?
6 MS. CAHILL: No recross.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Scoonover?
8 MS. SCOONOVER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief.
9 ---oOo---
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY CALIFORNIA STATE LANDS COMMISSION AND CALIFORNIA
12 DEPARTMENT OF PARKS AND RECREATION:
13 MS. SCOONOVER: Dr. Reid, Mr. Dodge asked a couple of
14 questions of you concerning rewatering various channels --
15 distributaries in Mill Creek and then asked some questions
16 also about the broadened delta and hypopycnal zone at the
17 mouth of Mill Creek and Ms. Goldsmith followed up with some
18 questions about Channel E. Do you recall those questions?
19 DR. REID: Yes.
20 MS. SCOONOVER: I'd like to show you a map --
21 DR. REID: I have it.
22 MS. SCOONOVER: -- the Stine map which is shown in the
23 DWP Mono Basin Waterfowl Habitat Plan, page seven of the
24 Stine report, which is Appendix F to the DWP plan.
25 Now, looking at the map which Stine has identified as
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1 "Figure 1 Abandoned Channels of the Mill Creek Bottomlands,"
2 he depicts Channel E as being above the County Road; is that
3 correct?
4 DR. REID: Yes.
5 MS. SCOONOVER: And describes the diversions below
6 County Road as the western trench and the eastern trench; is
7 that correct?
8 DR. REID: Correct.
9 MS. SCOONOVER: If you turn the page to page ten,
10 Dr. Stine then gives a description of Channel E.
11 Could you read that paragraph please at the top of
12 page ten?
13 It states: "Channel E. This abandoned channel lies
14 west of, and runs parallel to, the modem channel complex.
15 It follows a course marked in places by large amounts of
16 dead and downed willow. It heads near a dead (but standing)
17 cottonwood tree. With a length of approximately 2600 feet,
18 this is by far the longest of the abandoned channels. It is
19 characterized by numerous small depressions, and one
20 extensive depression (the 'Big Hole', approximately 800 feet
21 upstream of the County Road) that would become ponds when
22 rewatered."
23 MS. SCOONOVER: Dr. Reid, do you believe that
24 Channel E was an artificial channel?
25 DR. REID: I don't remember any discussion of that to
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1 tell you the truth.
2 MS. SCOONOVER: Okay. Continuing in Dr. Stine's
3 report then on page 11, the next page, there is a subheading
4 "Creation of the trenches." Could you read that paragraph
5 as well?
6 DR. REID: "Creation of the trenches. The
7 artifically-induced drop in the level of the Mono Lake since
8 1940 has caused the lake's main feeder streams to incise
9 their deltas. While Rush and Lee Vining creeks have each
10 cut a single trench, Mill Creek has cut two--an eastern one,
11 which has carried most of the flow of the stream, and a
12 western one, which was cut in 1969 when high flows plugged
13 the culvert under the county road and caused the stream to
14 avulse westward. Similar short-lived freshets, leading to
15 further deepening of the western trench, occurred in 1980
16 and 1986."
17 MS. SCOONOVER: So according to Dr. Stine's testimony
18 and the map that's attached to your waterfowl plan, he makes
19 a distinction Channel E exists above County Road and the
20 eastern and western trench exists below County Road.
21 Is that your understanding as well?
22 DR. REID: That's correct, yes.
23 MS. SCOONOVER: And your recommendations to rewater
24 Channel E and to allow water to flow into both the western
25 as well as eastern trench, therefore, would broaden the
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1 delta area and hypopycnal zone at the mouth of Mill Creek;
2 is that your testimony?
3 DR. REID: That's correct, that's what I said.
4 MS. SCOONOVER: Thank you, that's all.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you very much.
6 Any recross from the staff?
7 MR. FRINK: No.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Nothing from staff.
9 Any recross from the Board Members?
10 All right, that completes the recross.
11 Mr. Dodge, would you like to offer your exhibits at
12 this time?
13 MR. DODGE: I was just going to thank the witnesses,
14 Mr. Chairman. I'll offer them later.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, all right.
16 Thank you very much, gentlemen.
17 DR. REID: Thank you very much.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Appreciate your time.
19 MR. SHUFORD: Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: You're going to then offer your
21 exhibits at all once when you're done with all your
22 witnesses; is that right, Mr. Dodge?
23 MR. DODGE: Yes.
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, sir.
25 Then that would allow us then to move to the direct
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1 testimony of Dr. Ridenhour.
2 Good afternoon, sir, and welcome.
3 DR. RIDENHOUR: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I know you've probably taken the
5 oath at least twice so --
6 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I've only been sworn in once; but
7 I suspect I'll be sworn at more than once.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I don't know about that.
9 DR. RIDENHOUR: Okay. I'm not entirely sure of
10 procedure --
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Excuse me, Dr. Ridenhour. I think
12 Mr. Frink was about to say something.
13 MR. FRINK: Yes. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. I just
14 wanted to mention that Dr. Ridenhour had also submitted some
15 written comments entitled "A Plan For Monitoring The
16 Recovery Of The Mono Basin Streams" and that is in addition
17 to the written statement -- or testimony that he submitted
18 earlier. I believe he distributed that to all the parties
19 on the mailing list.
20 DR. RIDENHOUR: I did. I think it was mailed, I
21 think, on the 3rd of February to all parties.
22 MR. FRINK: Okay. And so that our record is clear, I
23 will designate your original written testimony as Ridenhour
24 Exhibit 1 and your second submittal as Ridenhour Exhibit 2.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Dr. Ridenhour, you may proceed, sir.
2 ---oOo---
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY RICHARD L. RIDENHOUR:
5 DR. RIDENHOUR: My name is Richard L. Ridenhour. My
6 address is 2736 Sunny Grove Avenue, McKinleyville,
7 California.
8 I am representing myself and no other person or party
9 at this hearing.
10 My background with regard to the Mono Lake streams
11 began when I became involved with the RTC, the Restoration
12 Technical Committee, as an independent scientist in the
13 summer of 1993. My services, along with two of -- the other
14 two independent scientists on the RTC, Dr. Trush and
15 Mr. Hunter, were contracted by the Los Angeles Department of
16 Water and Power to prepare a draft Stream Restoration Plan
17 as required by Decision 1631. I co-authored the draft
18 Stream Restoration Work Plan dated 4 October 1995 that was
19 submitted to the Department. I wish to emphasize that this
20 was a draft. A final copy was not requested by the
21 Department and was not prepared.
22 I have also reviewed the Grant Lake Operation
23 Management Plan and the Stream & Stream Channel Restoration
24 Plan submitted by the Board, and my comments on these plans
25 have been submitted to the Board by a memorandum to
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Mr. Anton dated 22 March 1996.
2 My testimony will be an elaboration on some of those
3 comments made in my memorandum 22 March 1996 and a couple of
4 additional comments which were not included in that
5 memorandum and, also, I will add some comments concerning
6 the monitoring plan.
7 First of all, with regard to the maintenance flows, I
8 have two concerns. One concern is the maintenance flows
9 proposed for extreme wet runoff years in Rush Creek upstream
10 from the Narrows. Without maintenance flows of
11 approximately 600 cubic feet per second occurring in about
12 ten percent of the years in that portion of the stream, I
13 believe continued maintenance will be required and should be
14 outlined in the plan.
15 My other principal concern is the relatively low
16 maintenance flow proposed for dry-normal runoff years in
17 Rush Creek and the lack of maintenance flows proposed for
18 dry runoff years in all of the streams. Even in dry runoff
19 years, the natural hydrographs for these streams have higher
20 flows than the base flows for the snow melt period. I
21 believe some maintenance flows are necessary in even dry
22 runoff years to assure flows in the secondary channels and
23 thereby restoration of ground water levels.
24 I also wish to emphasize that I believe the flows
25 necessary to maintain the stream habitats before the surface
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 elevation of Mono Lake reaches 6392 feet are the same as
2 will be needed to maintain the stream habitats after Mono
3 Lake reaches 6392 feet.
4 I believe one of the goals for restoration of stream
5 habitat should be restoration of the pre-diversion length of
6 stream channels. The Stream & Stream Channel Restoration
7 Plan does not include the rewatering of Reach 1 of Rush
8 Creek immediately below Grant Lake Reservoir Dam. Thus, the
9 restoration of the pre-diversion length of the main channel
10 would be reduced by approximately 2,800 feet.
11 I have also expressed my concern about the
12 vulnerability of Mono Ditch. I believe providing water from
13 Grant Lake Reservoir directly to Reach 1 could be the best
14 means of providing a reliable source of water for both base
15 and maintenance flows to the rest of lower Rush Creek.
16 I do not feel the Department proposals to bypass
17 sediments at Lee Vining, Walker and Parker Creeks are
18 adequate. And, first of all, I want to make clear that as
19 far as I'm concerned sediments must be recognized as
20 including all bedload materials such as gravels and cobbles
21 as well as sands and fines.
22 I believe that bypass channels could be constructed
23 around the diversion facilities to allow high flows to carry
24 bedload materials that would bypass the diversion basins.
25 Such bypass channels, generally following the natural stream
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 gradients, could also serve to allow the natural movement of
2 fish upstream.
3 I consider the restoration of the forest that existed
4 across the valleys of the streams, primarily Lee Vining and
5 Rush Creeks, to be important to the restoration and
6 maintenance of the pre-diversion stream habitats. I believe
7 the revegetation of the interfluvial areas should be
8 augmented by plantings to restore mature forests within a
9 reasonable period of time such as 30 to 40 years.
10 There seems to be general agreement that woody debris
11 is an important and beneficial element of the stream
12 habitat. Large woody debris is naturally mobile and does
13 not remain fixed in the stream system. Thus, as items of
14 large woody debris move through the system, they should be
15 replaced to maintain conditions until the woody riparian
16 vegetation reaches a size that would provide a natural
17 source of large woody debris to the stream.
18 Now, jumping to the monitoring program. I am in
19 general support of the approach suggested by the monitoring
20 program. I agree that the focus should be on measurements
21 that will determine whether or not the streams are
22 accounting dynamically to restore and maintain increased
23 habitat diversity within both the streams and the riparian
24 communities. However, I do have two basic concerns.
25 First, the establishment of restoration goals for
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 which progress towards attainment can be quantitatively
2 measured is, I believe, an essential aspect of the
3 restoration program. I recommend that the monitoring plan
4 should include identification of the qualities for which
5 quantitative goals are to be established, and I recommend
6 that the monitoring plan include tentative quantitative
7 goals subject to modification through an appropriate
8 consultative process based on monitoring results.
9 Second, the proposed monitoring program appears to me
10 to lack a clear indication of how the results of the
11 monitoring will be used to adapt the restoration program to
12 achieve the restoration goals. I strongly recommend
13 development of clearly stated procedures for adaptive
14 management of the restoration program based on the results
15 of the monitoring program.
16 And then I will touch a few of the specifics. I will
17 read all of the ones in my statement.
18 First with regard to planmapping, I urge planmapping
19 of reaches in Walker and Parker Creeks to establish
20 information for those streams. I think it's important to
21 have that in case there are changes so that those changes
22 can be compared to the existing conditions.
23 The ground water surface elevation protocol on page 22
24 of the White Book where channels are to be rewatered, I
25 strongly recommend the installation of piezometers and the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 initial measurement of ground water levels prior to
2 rewatering.
3 With regard to the "Fish Population Surveys -
4 Protocol," it is not clear to me what determines quote "that
5 snorkeling is not working." This is on page 23 of the White
6 Book. In the Blue Book with regard to "Fish Population
7 Calibration," and on page 14 I expect the snorkeling to
8 provide indices of population characteristics. I cannot
9 predict whether or not the position of the indices will be
10 sufficient to detect significant changes -- excuse me, I
11 should change that to detect changes in population size or
12 structure as significant. I'm aware that some argue that
13 snorkeling will not provide sufficient precision which may
14 make electrofishing necessary.
15 And, finally, with regard to the section titled "Fish
16 Population Populations" also on page 14 of the Blue Book, if
17 the status of fish populations is to be used as a measure of
18 restoration progress, some sort of quantitative measure
19 needs to be established and quote "moderate numbers" end
20 quote is not sufficient as far as I am concerned for this
21 purpose.
22 This concludes my summary of my direct testimony,
23 thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you,
25 Dr. Ridenhour. Let's go to cross-examination.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Ms. Goldsmith.
2 MS. GOLDSMITH: Thank you, I just have a couple of
3 questions.
4 ---oOo---
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION
6 BY LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER:
7 MS. GOLDSMITH: First of all, you are a fishery
8 biologist?
9 DR. REID: Yes, I am.
10 MS. GOLDSMITH: By profession and training; is that
11 right?
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct.
13 MS. GOLDSMITH: You are not a fluvial geomorphologist?
14 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I'm not.
15 MS. GOLDSMITH: With respect to questions relating to
16 movement of bedload and flows needed to create channels and
17 that sort of thing, you'd rely on a fluvial geomorphologist;
18 would you not?
19 DR. RIDENHOUR: And some of my own observations, yes.
20 MS. GOLDSMITH: Have you made measurements of Rush
21 Creek at 600 cfs?
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I have not.
23 MS. GOLDSMITH: Have you made measurements of Rush
24 Creek at 500 cfs?
25 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I have not. The only thing I can
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 say there is I have observed the Rush Creek, for example,
2 before and after flows of 600 feet, but I did not observe
3 them at flows of 600 feet.
4 MS. GOLDSMITH: That's all the questions I have.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you,
6 Ms. Goldsmith.
7 Is there anybody here from the U.S. Forest Service
8 that wishes to ask questions of this witness?
9 All right. Bureau of Land Management is not here.
10 Bellomo is not here. I guess Arcularius Ranch is not here
11 or is very silent today.
12 Mr. Roos-Collins?
13 Good afternoon, sir, welcome.
14 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Good afternoon.
15 ---oOo---
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION
17 BY CALIFORNIA TROUT, INC.:
18 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Good afternoon, Dr. Ridenhour.
19 DR. RIDENHOUR: Good afternoon.
20 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: I have two subjects to pursue with
21 you. The first is channel maintenance flows.
22 In your Exhibit 1 you express concerns about the
23 channel maintenance flows proposed by Los Angeles for
24 extreme wet and also for dry runoff years.
25 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, sir.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, Los Angeles' recommended flows
2 exceed the flows required by Decision 1631; is that correct?
3 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, sir.
4 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Is it your opinion that the channel
5 maintenance flows required by Decision 1631 will not be
6 adequate to achieve the restoration goal of that Decision?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's my opinion, yes.
8 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let me turn now to the second
9 subject. Namely, the monitoring plan submitted by Los
10 Angeles in January.
11 In your Exhibit 2, page one, second paragraph you
12 state that the establishment of restoration goals that can
13 be quantitatively measured is an essential aspect of the
14 restoration program.
15 DR. RIDENHOUR: I think it is.
16 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: By "essential" you mean necessary?
17 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
18 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Without such quantitative goals, in
19 your judgment the monitoring plan will be inadequate?
20 DR. RIDENHOUR: I feel that it is essential to have
21 quantitative goals so that you know where you are going in
22 terms of the restoration process and when you have gotten
23 there.
24 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, your Exhibit 2 does not state
25 such quantitative goals, does it?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, it does not.
2 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Do you have recommendations for
3 this Board for such quantitative goals?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: Not that I could present here at this
5 time, no. I believe there are -- there is information
6 available in some of the reports that have been prepared on
7 historic conditions that can be utilized. For example,
8 reports prepared by Trihey and Associates, reports prepared
9 by Eric Larson and the like that could be utilized to come
10 up with some sort of estimates of what those goals might be.
11 I appreciate that it may be necessary and appropriate
12 to modify those goals as information is gathered and that
13 was part of my other concern is I think there needs to be a
14 mechanism for that type of process to take place.
15 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Assuming that this Board allows the
16 submittal of written rebuttal testimony and assuming further
17 that your schedule accommodates your submittal of such
18 testimony, are you willing to make recommendations to this
19 Board regarding quantitative goals for the monitoring plan?
20 DR. RIDENHOUR: I would be willing to do so.
21 MR. FRINK: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.
22 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Frink.
23 MR. FRINK: Just for the record, I think some comments
24 from the Chair might be appropriate. I had a concern that
25 rebuttal testimony should be in response to something
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 someone else said; and if he is to submit quantitative goals
2 on what the monitoring program should determine and what the
3 restoration program should achieve, I'm not sure what that
4 is in rebuttal to.
5 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: It is specifically in rebuttal to
6 Los Angeles' Exhibits 21 and 22, the White and Blue Books,
7 and also Exhibit 31 in which Los Angeles indicates that it
8 is not possible to establish quantitative end points at this
9 time.
10 MR. FRINK: I withdraw my question.
11 MR. JOHNS: However, we didn't talk about the fact
12 that rebuttal testimony regarding the monitoring plan would
13 be appropriate to be submitted in advance and talked about
14 at this proceeding.
15 Mr. Ridenhour has taken advantage of that opportunity
16 and provided us written rebuttal evidence regarding the
17 monitoring plan. So now you're providing him a further
18 opportunity for rebuttal.
19 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Mr. Johns, I understand the
20 opportunity to provide testimony regarding the monitoring
21 plan to be a recognition that the parties did not previously
22 submit testimony regarding the monitoring which is now
23 before this Board. In other words, Los Angeles withdrew the
24 plan on which parties submitted direct testimony. I did not
25 understand that the February 10th notice required the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 submittal of all rebuttal testimony on the monitoring plan
2 to be done by February 14th.
3 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let me try it this way, Mr. Frink:
4 Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I thought I heard
5 Mr. Roos-Collins ask Dr. Ridenhour if he'd be willing to
6 give some information. Dr. Ridenhour answered that he
7 would. It doesn't mean that he would be so doing. He said
8 he'd be willing and that in my mind allows him the
9 opportunity. I didn't hear a commitment necessarily. Maybe
10 I, like I said, am splitting hairs.
11 But now that the cat is out of the bag anyway and we
12 now have a reference from Mr. Roos-Collins as to what such a
13 submittal would be in rebuttal to, I don't think we can stop
14 him from submitting that as rebuttal if he show wishes to.
15 Can he -- I mean, can we?
16 MR. FRINK: I think it's in the discretion of the
17 Chair.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I don't think I could stop that.
19 So as not to belabor it, why don't we proceed.
20 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let me be clear, though. I am not
21 assuming that this Board has authorized subsequent submittal
22 of rebuttal testimony on this issue or any other. That is a
23 decision that you will make. If permission is granted,
24 Dr. Ridenhour has indicated his willingness to submit
25 quantitative goals in such testimony.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: And all I'm saying is that since we
2 now have in the record a reference which we have stipulated
3 to that you gave us as to what such rebuttal testimony would
4 be in response to, it's his call as to whether or not he
5 wants to submit it. So I agree with you.
6 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Than you, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, sir. Please
8 proceed.
9 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: I note, by the way, my time has
10 continued to run during this discussion. I think I will,
11 however, be able to finish within my allotted time.
12 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, sir.
13 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Dr. Ridenhour, the next paragraph
14 on page one of your Exhibit 2, third full paragraph on that
15 page concerns the absence of clear procedures for adaptive
16 management in Los Angeles' monitoring plan.
17 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's correct.
18 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: The criticism is clearly stated
19 here. Let me ask you do you have recommendations for such
20 procedures?
21 DR. RIDENHOUR: I do not have anything worked out or
22 specific, but I would suggest that I think it should include
23 some sort of a consultant process involving the various
24 interested parties.
25 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let me turn, finally, to page three
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 of your Exhibit 2 where you discuss the monitoring of fish
2 population. You express a concern regarding the moderate
3 number objective stated in Los Angeles' monitoring plan.
4 Consistent with my previous questions to you, do you
5 have a recommendation for a fish population objective?
6 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I do not.
7 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Thank you, Dr. Ridenhour.
8 No further questions.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: And thank you, Mr. Roos-Collins.
10 Ms. Cahill?
11 ---oOo---
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME:
14 MS. CAHILL: Good afternoon, Dr. Ridenhour.
15 DR. RIDENHOUR: Good afternoon.
16 MS. CAHILL: We have had several references in this
17 hearing to the ad hoc committee letter and I'm trying to
18 find the date of it here.
19 DR. RIDENHOUR: There is some confusion on that.
20 MS. CAHILL: February 13th, 1996.
21 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct.
22 MS. CAHILL: Were you the writer of that letter?
23 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I was.
24 MS. CAHILL: And was it circulated to the other
25 members of the committee?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, it was.
2 MS. CAHILL: Who were the other members of the
3 committee?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: The other official members of the
5 committee were Dr. Trush, Mr. Hunter, Dr. Platts and
6 Mr. Smith. There were two others who participated in -- let
7 me back up just a moment.
8 The meetings of the subcommittee were entirely by
9 conference call, and I forget if we had four or five
10 conference calls. After the first conference call Mr. Allen
11 of DWP and Mr. Vorster also participated, although they were
12 not considered, as you might say, voting members of the
13 committee.
14 MS. CAHILL: Okay. And is there anything in that
15 letter with which you no longer agree?
16 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Excuse me, Ms. Cahill.
17 Ms. Goldsmith
18 MS. GOLDSMITH: Mr. Chair, I don't believe this is
19 covered in his written testimony. Perhaps she could
20 identify where that reference is.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Could you identify for us,
22 Ms. Cahill, what portion of his testimony you're referring
23 to, although --
24 MR. DODGE: I believe the rules of this --
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: You are not limited precisely to
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 just that. I mean, you should stay related, but you are
2 allowed to make reference to other materials that may be in
3 the record.
4 MS. CAHILL: There is a reference in his testimony to
5 requiring certain flows.
6 MR. FRINK: Mr. Chair.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, Mr. Frink.
8 MR. FRINK: Actually, up until now I think the rules
9 have been that cross-examination can be on any matter that
10 is within the witness' knowledge, expertise and relevant to
11 the proceedings.
12 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: That's correct.
13 MR. FRINK: It's recross that is limited to the scope
14 of redirect. So I don't believe that Ms. Cahill is
15 prevented from asking a question even if the issue wasn't
16 addressed in the witness' testimony.
17 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: That is my understanding as well.
18 Thank you, Mr. Frink.
19 MS. CAHILL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Dr. Ridenhour, you indicate in your testimony that one
21 concern you have is that maintenance flows proposed for
22 extreme wet runoff years in Rush Creek upstream of the
23 Narrows without maintenance flows of approximately 600 cfs,
24 in about ten percent of the years in that portion of the
25 stream you believe continuing maintenance will be required;
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 is that correct?
2 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's correct.
3 MS. CAHILL: Is that reflected in the ad hoc
4 committee's letter, the statement that those -- the flows
5 recommended by the ad hoc committee are not expected to be
6 adequate upstream of the Narrows?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: There is an indication to that extent.
8 I would have to look for it but it's in there, yes.
9 MS. CAHILL: And do you still hold that opinion?
10 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I do.
11 MS. CAHILL: Does the Los Angeles Stream Restoration
12 Plan restore Reach 1?
13 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, it does not.
14 MS. CAHILL: And in your opinion, without flows in
15 Reach 1 is Rush Creek as a whole restored?
16 DR. RIDENHOUR: It does not restore it to the pre-1941
17 condition, no.
18 MS. CAHILL: And are there advantages to the whole
19 stream -- in addition to restoring 2800 feet of streambed,
20 are there other advantages to the rest of Rush Creek in
21 restoring Reach 1?
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: As I've indicated, the concern that I
23 have with regard to the integrity of Mono Ditch in what is a
24 rather active seismic area is a problem to me and I would
25 think that if water were introduced directly into Reach 1
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 rather than into Rush Creek through Mono Ditch it would be a
2 more reliable system.
3 MS. CAHILL: From a fishery perspective do you have
4 any concern with what you understand to be what we call the
5 "Lee Vining augmentation proposal"?
6 DR. RIDENHOUR: I don't have any special concern. I
7 think the conditions imposed in terms of when the water is
8 to be taken from Lee Vining will not cause too much of a
9 problem on Lee Vining Creek. That would be the greatest
10 concern, that there would be a loss of the peak maintenance
11 flows from Lee Vining Creek; but I think the plan as it is
12 proposed takes care of that. So I'm not too awfully
13 concerned about that aspect, no.
14 MS. CAHILL: Okay. Just because I think it's not
15 clear I'd like to go over with you, as I attempted to do
16 with Dr. Beschta, the stream segments that are proposed for
17 rewatering.
18 Let me get DFG Exhibit 9. Can someone lend us a felt
19 tip pen that's not yellow?
20 DR. RIDENHOUR: I have a blue one here.
21 MS. CAHILL: That would be perfect. Blue is perfect
22 for water. I'm even going to let you cheat, Dr. Ridenhour.
23 I will give you the scientists' report.
24 Not all of Rush Creek is shown on this exhibit. Why
25 don't you sort of go down these in the order in which
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 they're found in the scientists' report and in each case
2 tell us what it is the scientists recommended and whether or
3 not you believe Los Angeles has incorporated this into its
4 plan.
5 DR. RIDENHOUR: It starts -- starting at the upstream
6 end -- I don't think I need that, thank you.
7 MS. CAHILL: Okay.
8 DR. RIDENHOUR: I know it fairly well.
9 Starting at the upstream end, there are two relatively
10 short segments in Reach 3A just below the boundary of
11 Reach 2 and Reach 3A. They would be on the west side of the
12 stream, two small loops that would be rewatered. It appears
13 that they have been blocked off from natural flow by
14 artificial means, that somebody has moved material to block
15 them off.
16 The next segment is at approximately the boundary
17 between Reach 3A and 3B very near the location where the
18 former B Channel that was diverted from the creek, the
19 B Ditch irrigation facility. And that would, again, flow to
20 the west side of the stream and I believe following the
21 former main channel alignment in that location and would
22 come back to the stream a short distance above the old
23 Highway 395 alignment.
24 MS. CAHILL: Dr. Ridenhour, in the scientists' report
25 in describing this stretch it says all flows shall be
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 diverted from the channel on the right side of the island at
2 elevation 6,881.
3 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
4 MS. CAHILL: Is it possible that that's an error and
5 it should, in fact, read the left side of the island?
6 DR. RIDENHOUR: It could be. I always, I have to
7 admit, keep getting myself confused whether I'm looking
8 upstream or downstream when I'm talking --
9 MS. CAHILL: In any event, on the west side?
10 DR. RIDENHOUR: West side. I think maybe I'm safer
11 there, thank you.
12 MS. CAHILL: Okay. And I don't know when we get onto
13 the chart.
14 DR. RIDENHOUR: Quite a ways yet.
15 MS. CAHILL: Okay.
16 DR. RIDENHOUR: The next channel that we propose to
17 rewater is downstream from the Marzano (phonetic) gravel
18 operation downstream from the confluence with Parker Creek
19 and it would go to the east side of the existing channel
20 following, as I understand it, the former main channel
21 alignment and would return to the existing main channel
22 immediately above the Narrows almost directly opposite the
23 mouth or confluence with Walker Creek.
24 The third segment -- excuse me.
25 MS. CAHILL: Let me ask you about that. It says --
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 the scientists' report says this channel should be restored
2 as the main channel and only five cfs designed to flow down
3 the present main channel when flows in Rush Creek are 47 cfs
4 below Grant Lake Dam.
5 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's correct.
6 MS. CAHILL: Is that the scientists' recommendation?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's correct.
8 MS. CAHILL: And that continues to be your
9 recommendation?
10 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's correct.
11 MS. CAHILL: Thank you.
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: The only added comment I make there is
13 they may be difficult to do, because the existing channel is
14 essentially a straight shot and trying to divert the water
15 and allow some to go on down that channel and not have it
16 wash on out and go down that channel may be very difficult
17 to do.
18 The next channel is below the Narrows and would be on
19 the east side and is to restore water flow through a portion
20 of the old main channel. It is in the report from which
21 this map that you have presented here came, which is out of
22 a report prepared by Dr. Stine, Mr. English and -- I can't
23 say his name, with Trihey and Associates. There are three
24 authors of that on rewatering the lower Rush Creek channels,
25 something to that extent.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Anyway, it would restore a flow to that old main
2 channel but would not propose to restore the main flow to
3 that old main channel.
4 Finally, we are down to the map and the next one is
5 what we call the 4Bi Channel. Basically following that
6 alignment taking off in the area by the 7, 7A, 7B area of
7 the existing main channel and flowing to the east side in a
8 fairly long, large loop and returning to the main channel
9 near what is numbered as the 9 Channel. This is designed or
10 proposed to have a flow of about ten cubic feet per second
11 when the flow into Rush Creek at -- below the dam is 47 cfs.
12 The next channel involved has already been rewatered
13 and that's the 10A, 10 Reach and that was rewatered in the
14 fall of 1995.
15 The last channel in the system takes off again to the
16 east side of the main channel just below the confluence of
17 this rewatered 10 sequence to the main channel, and in my
18 earlier communications I identified it as Channel 13. I
19 think Dr. Stine has pointed out and I have sent a letter
20 making a correction. It's actually in a sense Channel 14
21 and it is to get water back into what is called "big bend,"
22 which was a large loop in the stream on the east side
23 immediately above the ford on Rush Creek.
24 Because of the incision resulting from the lowering of
25 the lake level, it would not be possible or practical to get
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 water back into that loop. Rather, it would be more
2 practicable -- in fact, it appears to me it would be rather
3 easy to reintroduce the water upstream of that, as I
4 indicated, just below the restoration of Channel 10 into the
5 main stem and allow it to flow down through that big bend
6 area and come back out at the ford.
7 It will require a little additional work to block the
8 old upper upstream end of the big bend loop because,
9 otherwise, it is likely the water would flow back out that
10 and not continue around the big bend. So there will need to
11 be a block put on that -- what is now a dry channel.
12 MS. CAHILL: Dr. Ridenhour, have you read the
13 testimony which Dr. Stine has submitted in connection with
14 these hearings regarding what he calls the biggest bend?
15 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
16 MS. CAHILL: And are you in agreement with that
17 testimony of Dr. Stine's?
18 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
19 MS. CAHILL: Do you understand that all of these
20 reaches have been incorporated into Los Angeles' Stream
21 Restoration Plan?
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
23 MS. CAHILL: And you don't recommend any change from
24 the recommendations in the scientists' report?
25 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I do not. The only concern that I
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 have expressed with regard to the Department's proposal to
2 rewater these channels is with regard to that last one, the
3 big bend area, because there is no indication in their plan
4 that the upper arm of the big bend had to be blocked to
5 prevent the water from circulating out. That needs to be a
6 part of the design for that rewatering.
7 MS. CAHILL: Dr. Ridenhour, with regard to the
8 monitoring plan, there's reference in that plan to
9 representative reaches.
10 Do you believe the reaches chosen are actually
11 representative reaches?
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: Reasonably enough. I have no
13 particular problem with those. The only point that I made
14 that sort of addresses that is that, as I recall, there was
15 a proposal to monitor closely the ground water in the two
16 downstream reaches and I would suggest that it might be
17 better to do one of the downstream reaches and do the
18 monitoring also in the reach immediately above old Highway
19 395 alignment -- highway alignment because two downstream
20 reaches, I think, are sufficiently similar in that they're
21 not going to show you that much difference, while that's a
22 very different area up above Highway 395, and so that was
23 the only change in that regard.
24 MS. CAHILL: Okay. I think I've maybe not understood
25 you. I thought you were telling me about where you wanted
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 ground water to be monitored; but were you, in fact, telling
2 me where you think some planmapping should be done?
3 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, the only point that I make is as I
4 recall the monitoring program that was outlined said that in
5 two of the planmapping reaches they were going to monitor
6 ground water and the two that were identified were the two
7 downstream reaches; and I would suggest that one of the
8 downstream reaches and one of the reaches, namely the one up
9 above old Highway 395 alignment, should be where they
10 monitor ground water as part of that planmapping program.
11 MS. CAHILL: Okay. Would there be any reaches that
12 you would suggest be added to the monitoring plan?
13 DR. RIDENHOUR: The only additions, as I've indicated
14 in my direct testimony, was I think that it would be very
15 desirable to establish reaches for planmapping. Maybe it
16 would only be once when they would be repeated I don't know,
17 but to do them for Walker and Parker so we had something in
18 hand as a basis of comparison if something were to develop
19 change and we want to know what's happened.
20 MS. CAHILL: Let me just briefly get back to the ad
21 hoc committee letter. Does it recommend channel maintenance
22 flows for Lee Vining Creek?
23 DR. RIDENHOUR: It did not really address that to any
24 great extent, as I recall. Let me please glance at that a
25 moment.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MS. CAHILL: I think it's page four.
2 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I see it. By the way, the
3 confusion about the date is that the date on the cover was
4 the 13th of February, which is the correct date, and then on
5 each of the pages I dated it the 12th of February.
6 Embarrassing, but that's the way it goes.
7 We did address that and, as I recall, without
8 comparing the data I don't -- or the numbers I can't
9 remember for sure, but I think the numbers that are shown
10 here are precisely the same numbers that had appeared in the
11 draft work plan that was prepared by the stream scientists.
12 The only sort of qualification that we made was to
13 recognize that in all years of a given particular runoff
14 category those flows might not be available because of
15 Southern Cal Edison operations or just the snow pack and
16 runoff characteristics in that year. Therefore, we wanted
17 to recognize that and to suggest that the maximum flow
18 should be allowed to go under those circumstances, that if
19 it was calling for 450 and a peak that was arrived at that
20 year was 375 so be it, 375 was adequate.
21 MS. CAHILL: All right. In fact, the minimum
22 stipulated flows or the available peak flow and the peak
23 flow was less?
24 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct, correct, thank you.
25 MS. CAHILL: The ad hoc committee letter states that
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 the flows necessary to maintain the stream habitats as
2 dynamic systems while the level of Mono Lake is being
3 restored do not differ from those needed after the level of
4 Mono Lake is restored.
5 DR. RIDENHOUR: That's correct, and I repeated that in
6 my direct testimony. I feel rather strongly that that is
7 the case, that if it's going to take a certain flow to
8 restore it and maintain it pre-Mono Lake being 6392, then
9 it's going to take those same flows afterwards.
10 MS. CAHILL: Do you have concerns with the method of
11 sediment bypass that's proposed in the Los Angeles plan?
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I do.
13 MS. CAHILL: And from a fishery perspective can you
14 tell me what those concerns are?
15 DR. RIDENHOUR: I was concerned, particularly on Lee
16 Vining, with the proposal to move material and place it
17 during the winter low flow period downstream from the bypass
18 facility. This would be mainly fine materials, sands and
19 silts, and this is during a low flow period and the material
20 would very likely be deposited in the stream in such a way
21 to cause damage to the stream habitat.
22 Also, nothing was provided to bypass larger materials,
23 cobbles and gravels, and one of the concerns is to have a --
24 in a sense a regular, not every year necessarily, but a
25 consistent source of replenishment of spawning gravels and
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 that's where it comes from, this mobilization of the bedload
2 upstream; and in the plans as prepared by DWP this would not
3 occur as far as I can tell.
4 MS. CAHILL: Do you believe there's a role for
5 adaptive management in this -- in the process of restoring
6 these streams?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: Absolutely.
8 MS. CAHILL: And how would that come about?
9 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, that is a concern that I had.
10 As I indicated, the adaptive management would take place as
11 the monitoring results were reviewed and analyzed, and I did
12 not see clearly spelled out how the decision-making process
13 would occur in terms of modifying the management program,
14 whether it's the flow level at various times or whatever the
15 case may be; but I think that process needs to be spelled
16 out.
17 MS. CAHILL: Okay. Thank you very much.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you, Ms. Cahill.
19 Ms. Scoonover?
20 MS. SCOONOVER: I have no questions.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: No questions.
22 Mr. Dodge?
23 ///
24 ///
25 ///
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1045
1 ---oOo---
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO LAKE COMMITTEE
4 MR. DODGE: Good afternoon, Dr. Ridenhour.
5 DR. RIDENHOUR: Good afternoon.
6 MR. DODGE: Now, I understood your testimony that --
7 to be that you stood by the October 1995 recommendations of
8 600 cfs in extreme years in Rush Creek, correct?
9 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct.
10 MR. DODGE: Okay. Now, if you are going to have a
11 restoration program that is solely based on high flows and
12 assuming that your estimate of 600 cfs is necessary,
13 assuming that to be accurate, do you have an opinion as to
14 whether there should be a bypass from Grant -- past Grant
15 Dam?
16 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, of course, my judgment there is
17 based on the fact that I fully appreciate that existing
18 facilities will not provide 600 cfs unless there is a spill,
19 and at what time that spill would occur is of concern to me
20 and -- in other words, it is never a guarantee as to what
21 the level of flow is going to be in that situation.
22 MR. DODGE: You did look as to whether spills would
23 reliably provide the 600 cfs, didn't you?
24 DR. RIDENHOUR: We looked at that but we did not have
25 good information in that regard because what we looked at,
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1046
1 for example, was based upon going into a year at a certain
2 level in the reservoir and what we did not have an
3 opportunity to look at was a sequence of years. If there
4 were two or three dry years as opposed to two or three wet
5 years or two or three normal years, we did not really have a
6 chance to look at these alternative circumstances of
7 sequencing.
8 MR. DODGE: Did you address that subject matter as to
9 whether spills would reliably provide 600 cfs in the
10 February 13th memorandum?
11 DR. RIDENHOUR: We considered that and I think there
12 was -- I'm grasping, groping here. I think we felt that
13 there was not a very good reliability in terms of counting
14 on that.
15 MR. DODGE: So if you're right, in extreme years 600
16 cfs is necessary to restore Rush Creek above the Narrows,
17 that would necessitate a bypass of Grant Lake, correct?
18 DR. RIDENHOUR: Something of that sort, yes.
19 MR. DODGE: And absent such a bypass, you talked about
20 the sort of hands-on restoration program that would be
21 necessary in Rush Creek above the Narrows.
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: If the flows that were provided were
23 not adequate and assuming that 600 is what is necessary, I
24 think that the hands on would be required and I think it's
25 appropriate that what would be proposed to be done under
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 those circumstances needs to be spelled out.
2 MR. DODGE: Just to try to shortcut this, sir, at page
3 140 of your report you spell out the sorts of considerations
4 that should be addressed in a hands-on report -- hands-on
5 restoration program.
6 Would you stand by that language in your draft report?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: I don't see it on page 104.
8 MR. DODGE: 140, sir.
9 DR. RIDENHOUR: Oh, 140, excuse me. Well, the
10 reference there was in the more general sense if you're
11 looking at the second paragraph where it says (reading) that
12 flows necessary for the stream to maintain itself are not
13 provided, a different plan than the one proposed must be
14 prepared. Alternative recommendations would identify
15 actions needed to create and maintain the stream habitat in
16 lieu of natural processes doing so, and I stand by that.
17 MR. DODGE: You stand by that. All right, thank you.
18 That's all I wanted to know.
19 Now, in terms of DWP's proposal to upgrade the return
20 ditch to 350 cfs and provide a Lee Vining Creek augmentation
21 of up to 150 cfs, I have a few questions on that for you,
22 sir.
23 Upgrading the return ditch to 150 cfs capacity, what
24 affect would that have on the existing fish habitat in the
25 ditch?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. RIDENHOUR: It is my opinion that it would be very
2 poor habitat.
3 MR. DODGE: What sort of habitat is there today?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: There is, of course, a fair amount --
5 not a lot, but there is some vegetation that has developed
6 in the marshes of the ditch. There have been some
7 improvements -- habitat improvements done by putting
8 boulders and so on in the ditch and gravels and the like to
9 try to make it better fish habitat.
10 My understanding of the process to increase its
11 capacity would be to remove vegetation, remove obstructions
12 that would affect the flow of water so that the flow could
13 be maximized in the sense that the ditch could operate most
14 efficiently in terms of carrying water and the habitat
15 complexity would be lost that would be desirable for fish.
16 MR. DODGE: All right. In response to one of
17 Ms. Cahill's questions you indicated that you weren't too
18 concerned about injuring Lee Vining Creek through the
19 augmentation. I won't ask you to repeat that, but would you
20 agree that the monitoring program should see how the
21 augmentation is affecting Lee Vining Creek?
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: Absolutely.
23 MR. DODGE: Assuming that there is augmentation going
24 on, Dr. Ridenhour, do you have an opinion as to whether
25 there should be -- augmentation in order to produce 500 cfs
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 under DWP's plan, do you have an opinion as to whether there
2 should be allowed irrigation from Parker and Walker Creek
3 during the 500 cfs channel maintenance flow?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: My opinion there is that there should
5 not because one of the considerations that we discussed in
6 the subcommittee was that though we would not have 600 cfs
7 from Grant Lake Reservoir down to the Narrows, with the
8 augmentation of water from Lee Vining and the discharge of
9 water through the Mono Ditch -- improved capacity Mono Ditch
10 plus the water in Parker and Walker below the Narrows we
11 would have close to 600 cfs.
12 So if a substantial amount of that was being used for
13 irrigation, then that would be reduced and would have some
14 affect on the viability of the system below the Narrows as
15 far as I'm concerned, or at least it could have.
16 MR. DODGE: If the Water Board were to accept DWP's
17 proposed channel maintenance flows as minimums, would you
18 agree that it would be desirable to maximize the flows in
19 all year types?
20 DR. RIDENHOUR: Could you repeat that, please?
21 MR. DODGE: Assuming the Water Board were to accept
22 DWP's channel maintenance flows, would it -- as minimum
23 channel maintenance flows, would it be desirable in all year
24 types to maximize the flows, in other words, to get above
25 the Narrows?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. RIDENHOUR: This is something that we have
2 discussed. I don't know if we discussed it in the
3 subcommittee. I know the three stream scientists discussed
4 this matter and, that is, the matter of whether these flows
5 when they're stipulated as minimums are interpreted as being
6 also maximums and we had indicated -- or our judgment was we
7 hoped not, that they were not maximums --
8 MR. DODGE: That were not minimums?
9 DR. RIDENHOUR: That the minimums were not the
10 maximum, that there would be times they would be exceeded
11 even in a given water year. If there is a stipulated
12 minimum maintenance flow, that it would be exceeded at
13 times.
14 MR. DODGE: Would that be desirable?
15 DR. RIDENHOUR: That would be fine. I don't think
16 there's any concern about that.
17 MR. DODGE: Okay. In terms of getting these
18 exceedances, would it be desirable to have coordination with
19 Southern California Edison?
20 DR. RIDENHOUR: I think generally speaking it would be
21 desirable to have coordination with Southern California
22 Edison, yes.
23 MR. DODGE: In wetter year types would it be desirable
24 for DWP to operate Grant Lake so as to encourage spills?
25 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, it would.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1051
1 MR. DODGE: Now, you told us about your concern over
2 the channel maintenance flow proposed by DWP in dry years
3 and I won't ask you to repeat that, but I want you to focus
4 specifically on dry-normal years and the lower echelon of
5 normal years.
6 Now, I ask you to assume that the scientists in their
7 October 1995 proposal in dry-normal years proposed 250 and
8 Los Angeles in its plan proposed a hundred. That's
9 hypothetical number one. Hypothetical number two, October
10 1995 the scientists in normal years proposed 400 and DWP in
11 its plan proposes 250, all right.
12 Do you have those numbers in mind, sir?
13 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
14 MR. DODGE: Do they cause you any concern as to the
15 adequacy of DWP's proposal?
16 DR. RIDENHOUR: The concern that I would have is that
17 I think fairly clearly the dynamics of the stream will be
18 substantially less at the lower flows, and the flows that we
19 had identified were with the intention or expectation that
20 certain types of physical activities would take place
21 relative to the stream in terms of movement of bedload and
22 erosion, cutting meanders, building point bars and so on;
23 and if the flows are less, I would be concerned that some of
24 those processes would not be taking place as we had
25 anticipated and intended they should.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. DODGE: Going quickly to your comments on the
2 monitoring program, sir, you expressed a concern over who
3 quote "evaluates the results" of the monitoring program and
4 I think that's at page one of your testimony.
5 DR. RIDENHOUR: (Nodding of the head.)
6 MR. DODGE: Do you as you sit here today have an
7 opinion as to -- not what specific person but what
8 discipline, if you will, should evaluate the results?
9 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, I think there was, I guess, two
10 aspects of that. Obviously somebody who is well versed in
11 stream morphology and the like as well as a fisheries
12 biologist, those two in particular. Whether you need
13 somebody who is well versed in the vegetative components or
14 not is maybe a little less of a concern, although -- well, I
15 shouldn't say that.
16 It would be a concern. It depends what aspect of the
17 monitoring program you're looking at. If you're looking at
18 vegetative response, then that's going to be a very
19 important part of it, but I think the other aspect in
20 addition to the expertise was, I think, that the parties who
21 have had a direct interest in the program ought to have some
22 role in this evaluation process.
23 MR. DODGE: But in the end do you agree with me that
24 independent scientists should quote "evaluate the results"?
25 DR. RIDENHOUR: I think that would be the best, yes.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. DODGE: Okay. And then you went on to express a
2 concern about quote "who decides what adaptation should be
3 implemented" end quote. Do you recall that, sir?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct.
5 MR. DODGE: Do you have an opinion as you sit here
6 today as to who should decide?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: Again, I think it should be the
8 parties that have been involved in this process.
9 MR. DODGE: Well, the parties who have been involved
10 in this process don't have a great history of agreement,
11 sir. On the off chance that there's disagreement, do you
12 have an opinion as to who should quote "decide what
13 adaptation should be implemented" end quote?
14 DR. RIDENHOUR: I can appreciate the comment about the
15 lack of agreement having been directly involved in that
16 process but --
17 MS. GOLDSMITH: Objection. I believe this is outside
18 the scope of the witness' expertise --
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: It probably is, isn't it,
20 Dr. Ridenhour?
21 MS. GOLDSMITH: -- especially in light of his most
22 recent response.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I'll sustain the objection.
24 MR. DODGE: Do you feel competent to answer that
25 question, Dr. Ridenhour? I took it right out of your
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1054
1 testimony. I assume you have some interest in this.
2 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, I have an interest. I don't
3 know that I can directly answer the question. I was mainly
4 raising a concern that I had. I think that the question
5 needs to be answered. I don't know if I'm the proper one to
6 answer it to be frank.
7 MR. DODGE: All right. Now, someone asked you -- I
8 think it was Ms. Cahill asked you a question about the
9 rewatering of Channel 10 and you testified that that took
10 place in -- was it October of 1995, sir?
11 DR. RIDENHOUR: I believe it was October 1995.
12 MR. DODGE: All right. And did you have any role in
13 that?
14 DR. RIDENHOUR: During 1995 the three stream
15 scientists had a dual role, as a matter of fact. Our one
16 role was preparing the draft work plan -- Stream Restoration
17 Work Plan and the other was to oversee the completion of RTC
18 authorized projects, and one of those authorized projects
19 was the rewatering of Channel 10. So we did provide the
20 oversight for that project.
21 MR. DODGE: Okay. What did that oversight consist of?
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: Primarily it consisted of providing
23 the description of what the project should entail and some
24 of the criteria that should be met in terms of the flows and
25 location and the placement of piezometers and things of this
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 sort. The work in actuality was done under the field
2 supervision of Scott English, and I or none of the other
3 stream scientists ever were there in the field at the time
4 the work was done.
5 MR. DODGE: Can you describe for the Board the before
6 and after on Channel 10?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: I can to some extent. I don't have
8 the report before me that Mr. English prepared and submitted
9 but this was, as indicated on the map that we were looking
10 at a few moments ago a double loop, as I recall, about a
11 total of 1200 feet long and, actually, the initial design of
12 the rewatering was only to rewater the downstream portion of
13 that loop, the Channel 10 portion.
14 Subsequently, Mr. Trihey, who had prepared the initial
15 design, suggested that it might be better -- he didn't like
16 the idea of trying to bring water in in the sense at a point
17 bar location because the loop of the stream was sort of away
18 from putting water into that area if you just followed
19 Channel 10 and he suggested that it be relocated upstream
20 and include Channel 10A which would provide a better, he
21 thought, configuration for getting water into the stream
22 channel system.
23 This was brought before the Stream Technical Advisory
24 Group meeting, TAG meeting, which had membership of
25 essentially all the RTC parties involved and they agreed
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 with this relocation.
2 So the procedure then was to go ahead and rewater it
3 from that upstream end and the breach was made. There was a
4 large amount of spoils. The plan was and to my knowledge --
5 although, as I said, I was not there and I have not visited
6 the site since -- the materials, the spoils, were to be put
7 on essentially barren areas of the interfluvial reach
8 between the rewatered channel and the existing channel, but
9 there was a lot of material and water was reintroduced.
10 My understanding further was that the design as it
11 ended up put more water than had been intended into the
12 channel and there was some subsequent work both to reduce
13 the flow into that channel and to do some revegetation and
14 armoring of the area which was cut to provide water into it.
15 There was only excavation to get water into the
16 system. There was no improvement of the channel downstream
17 once the water was into the system. Piezometers were placed
18 in two transects and within a week after water was
19 introduced the water level in the middle of the interfluvial
20 area and adjacent to the rewatered channel had increased 18
21 to 24 inches.
22 MR. DODGE: If I understand you correctly, the water
23 table was raised?
24 DR. RIDENHOUR: It was raised something in the
25 neighborhood of 18 to 24 inches and it took about a week for
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 that to occur. It took about a week for the water to get
2 through the system as I was told by Mr. English before water
3 started coming out at the downstream end. It took that long
4 for it to basically fill up that system.
5 MR. DODGE: Was the water table raised both at the top
6 of the stretch and the bottom of the stretch?
7 DR. RIDENHOUR: There were only two transects put in
8 and there was none put in in that lower loop. They were
9 both put in in the area of the upper loop. So I cannot
10 answer that for the lower loop.
11 MR. DODGE: Would you expect the water table to have
12 been raised in the lower loop?
13 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I would have.
14 MR. DODGE: Okay, go ahead.
15 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, that was --
16 MR. DODGE: Let me ask you a couple questions. You
17 indicated that the spoils at least as designed were to be
18 put on upland habitat, correct?
19 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, the interfluvial area between --
20 excuse me, the terrace area between the rewatered channel
21 and the main channel, as far as putting it to the east of
22 the rewatered channel, that was not practicable because
23 that's a steep hillside. The water is flowing right against
24 that eastern hill.
25 MR. DODGE: But at least as designed the spoils were
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 not to be put on the stream bank, correct?
2 DR. RIDENHOUR: They were not to be put on the stream
3 bank.
4 MR. DODGE: They were not to be put on the riparian
5 zone, correct?
6 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, it depends how you define
7 "riparian zone." They were relatively barren areas, some
8 relatively near the stream and in that sense could be
9 considered riparian.
10 MR. DODGE: But areas that were vegetated by sagebrush
11 and rabbitbrush, correct?
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: Or if anything, yes.
13 MR. DODGE: All right. Now, as designed would you
14 expect that the rewatering of Channel 10 would have created
15 wetlands?
16 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
17 MR. DODGE: Do you have any quantification of that?
18 DR. RIDENHOUR: I have no quantification. I have seen
19 pictures of the area and am satisfied there was a fairly
20 substantial amount -- I wouldn't say many acres of it, but
21 there was substantial ponding in there because this was an
22 area where there were existing old beaver dams and -- so
23 there was a substantial amount of ponding behind those old
24 beaver dams.
25 MR. DODGE: But was it part of the restoration of
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 Channel 10 that cottonwood and willows would be planted?
2 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
3 MR. DODGE: And Jeffrey pines?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: I don't know that any Jeffrey pine
5 were to be planted in that area.
6 MR. DODGE: Do you have any knowledge as to how the
7 cottonwood and willows are doing.
8 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, I do not.
9 MR. DODGE: Okay. Was a Corps permit obtained for
10 this work?
11 DR. RIDENHOUR: The Corps was contacted. I don't
12 know -- I was not involved with the permit process. The
13 Department of Water and Power was the agency that took care
14 of the permitting process.
15 MR. DODGE: Are you satisfied that rewatering of
16 Channel 10 had beneficial effects?
17 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I am.
18 MR. DODGE: Were you here when Dr. Kauffman testified?
19 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
20 MR. DODGE: Do you disagree with him?
21 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes, I do.
22 MR. DODGE: No further questions.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, Mr. Dodge.
24 Dr. Ridenhour -- oh, excuse me, before I get ahead of myself
25 does staff have questions? Mr. Canaday.
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1 ---oOo---
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY STAFF:
4 MR. CANADAY: In your testimony, Dr. Ridenhour, you
5 expressed some concern with particularly dry year channel
6 maintenance or the lack of them. In your February 13th memo
7 there are recommendations for dry year flows for Rush and
8 Lee Vining Creek.
9 Are those the flows that you would recommend?
10 DR. RIDENHOUR: Well, I have to admit that I would
11 back off in one respect. I don't know that in dry years,
12 for example, on Rush Creek that a hundred cfs is necessary;
13 but I do feel that something more than base flows would be
14 necessary and if I were really to come down to the bottom
15 line, I would say approximately 50 cfs would be sufficient,
16 again, in terms of the design that we had proposed for the
17 rewatered channels to put water in the channels.
18 They were designed to have essentially ten cfs at 50
19 cfs/47 cfs in Rush Creek and, therefore, they would get
20 watered and 100 cfs is not going to do much in terms of
21 dynamic processes in the stream, but getting water into
22 those secondary channels will be important as far as I'm
23 concerned to sustain the ground water.
24 MR. CANADAY: On Lee Vining Creek I believe your
25 recommendation was 75 cfs?
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1 DR. RIDENHOUR: And I think that could be reduced
2 proportionately.
3 MR. CANADAY: Okay. You talk about a planting of the
4 inter-fluves. What species of vegetation were you thinking
5 of when you made that recommendation?
6 DR. RIDENHOUR: Primarily Jeffrey pine and Black
7 cottonwood.
8 MR. CANADAY: And it's your belief that currently
9 there is a lack of this material -- at least of a size and
10 of an age to contribute large woody debris in those areas;
11 is that correct?
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct.
13 MR. CANADAY: And that -- you believe the time for
14 that material to be contributing naturally is 30 to 40 years
15 out in the future?
16 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes. One time we were in the field
17 Dr. Trush and I counted some tree rings. We found some
18 stumps and counted some tree rings and in order to get a
19 tree in the neighborhood of 10 to 12 inches diameter it
20 seemed to take about that amount of time and that was what
21 we thought as a minimal size to start being suitable as
22 large woody debris.
23 MR. CANADAY: So your recommendation is to jump start
24 some of these areas?
25 DR. RIDENHOUR: Correct.
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1 MR. CANADAY: And that's with the knowledge that
2 you've seen with some of the ground water increases because
3 of the rewatering?
4 DR. RIDENHOUR: Yes.
5 MR. CANADAY: Thank you. That's all I have.
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you, Mr. Canaday.
7 Anything else from staff?
8 MR. FRINK: No.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. I'm told the Board
10 members do not have questions of this witness at this time.
11 Dr. Ridenhour, do you have any redirect?
12 DR. RIDENHOUR: No, sir, I do not.
13 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: No redirect, all right. Therefore,
14 no recross. Thank you. I'm sure that that --
15 MR. DODGE: I'm not his lawyer but if you hadn't
16 advised him of that, I was going to.
17 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I was going to remind him what that
18 would open up and I'm sure, as I said a moment ago,
19 Dr. Trush appreciates it.
20 Dr. Ridenhour, do you wish to offer -- I believe you
21 have two exhibits.
22 DR. RIDENHOUR: I have those two items and I don't
23 know the process, I have to admit, to enter them as
24 exhibits.
25 MR. DODGE: I would offer Ridenhour Exhibits 1 and 2
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1 into evidence.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you very much, Mr. Dodge.
3 Mr. Johns or Mr. Frink?
4 MR. FRINK: Yes. Also, Dr. Ridenhour submitted his
5 statement of qualifications along with his Notice of Intent
6 to Appear and we'd suggest labeling that as Ridenhour
7 Exhibit 3.
8 DR. RIDENHOUR: Thank you.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Without objection, we will accept
10 those three exhibits into the record. All right. Thank you
11 very much, Dr. Ridenhour. Appreciate your being here and
12 your patience.
13 That will then take us to the direct testimony of
14 Dr. Trush; is that correct?
15 MR. DODGE: Yes, I would ask Dr. --
16 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Dodge, I see
17 that Mr. Roos-Collins has risen.
18 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, before we begin with
19 Dr. Trush, I made an error in a reference to Los Angeles'
20 exhibits during my discussion of Mr. Frink's objection. I
21 referred to White and Blue Books as Exhibits 21 and 22. For
22 clarity they are Exhibits 22 and 23.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, thank you for that
24 clarification, sir. We appreciate that.
25 THE REPORTER: I need to change my paper, one second.
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1 (Off the record.)
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let's try to complete by, say, 5:15
3 at the latest today. If we can't, we'll come back around
4 7:15, but I understand that you all have incentive to try to
5 complete by 5:15. Mr. Dodge, please, sir.
6 MR. DODGE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 ---oOo---
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO LAKE COMMITTEE:
10 MR. DODGE: Dr. Trush, I would like you to confirm
11 that Exhibit R-NAS/MLC-6 is your written testimony on behalf
12 of the Mono Lake Committee and the National Audubon Society
13 and I'd like you to take just a few minutes and summarize
14 that testimony, please.
15 DR. TRUSH: Yes, it is my exhibit and I thank the
16 Board for letting me slip in here. I'm heading to
17 Bangladesh in about four days to chase river dolphins up the
18 Ganges and that's been planned for months. So I wanted to
19 make sure I could do that.
20 Also, a little comment. I knew this little guy who
21 had dollar bill sewed to the back of his hat and a Chinese
22 red star in front -- I'm testifying on both sides here --
23 and he would just turn the hat depending on who showed up
24 and this was after discussion with a lot of folks. So it
25 wasn't -- I'm straddling a fence with everybody's blessing
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 here.
2 MR. DODGE: Are you aware, Dr. Trush, that before
3 going over to the Dark Side that Darth Vader was a Jedi
4 Knight?
5 DR. TRUSH: Well, anyway, in case those are warnings,
6 just who is this guy up here? I don't know but, anyway, I'm
7 going to start off with a quote and get right -- just finish
8 very briefly.
9 E.E. Cummings came up with something "honor the past,
10 look forward to the future and dance your death at their
11 wedding." And when we started out as RTC scientists, what
12 we realized what we had to do in order to wed the past and
13 the future was to come up with present day fluvial processes
14 that honor the past.
15 You can add flows to any ditch and get a dynamic
16 stream ecosystem depending on how you want to define
17 "ecosystem dynamic," but we realized that was only part of
18 the goal when we started out as the RTC and that was that we
19 had to look at what the past channel morphology was and that
20 that was figuring in heavily into our restoration
21 prescription.
22 So that's how we honor the past is by looking at the
23 fluvial processes that create the channel at that time and
24 our mission was Decree '41. So our goal: A healthy river
25 ecosystem and trying to restore the morphology as best we
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 can the way it used to be, that combination.
2 Now, we agreed with both parties when we got started
3 on this that adding flow and a grazing moratorium were by
4 far the two major components. We also quickly agreed with
5 LA that the structural approach of creating pools and
6 ripples was seriously flawed and to us clearly doomed to
7 failure; and even if the flows could have been kept below
8 some sort of threshold for movement of the stream channel,
9 it was clear that when we looked in the past record that
10 there would be floods that LA and Edison had no control over
11 and that there would be periodic big floods that would wipe
12 out any sort of structural approach.
13 We disagreed completely with LA on the flows that
14 would be needed to bring back our objective. In other
15 words, the flows could not surpass a threshold for moving
16 the bed, for depositing on the terraces, and these were the
17 flows that eventually were put together before we showed up
18 in this in the summer of '93.
19 We also disagreed with Fish and Game's flows that were
20 marginally better and only marginally better. So we quickly
21 grouped and realized that the decision, the Mono Lake
22 Decision, the flows were inadequate to bring back these
23 stream ecosystems. Enough to create a stream ecosystem, but
24 not enough to bring back the one that was there, not a
25 glimmer of chance we thought of bringing back the ones that
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 were there.
2 So where did this leave us? We, first of all, made a
3 determination that the lower channels, which were the most
4 sensitive, were alluvial, that they migrated, that they
5 scoured, that there were bars forming, that the riparian
6 vegetation relied on an active stream channel. Once we did
7 that, once we felt that the channel was alluvial, we then
8 took the unregulated flow regime and asked ourselves: What
9 aspects of the unregulated flow regime would accommodate the
10 processes -- the physical processes that we would expect
11 from a healthy stream ecosystem?
12 And that formed the basis of our restoration -- our
13 restoration recommendations in the draft scientists' report,
14 and I think I'll just leave it there. That summarizes what
15 I was trying to get at in my testimony.
16 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, Dr. Trush.
17 Let's go through the list for cross-examination.
18 Ms. Goldsmith?
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: Good afternoon, Dr. Trush. I have no
20 questions.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, that's interesting, all
22 right.
23 No one here from the Forest Service I take it still.
24 Bureau of Land Management, Bellomos, Arcularius Ranch.
25 Is Dr. Ridenhour still here?
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1 MR. DODGE: No, he's long gone.
2 DR. RIDENHOUR: He's trying to beat the traffic back
3 to Arcata.
4 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Roos-Collins, do you have
5 questions?
6 ---oOo---
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY CALIFORNIA TROUT, INC.:
9 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Good afternoon, Dr. Trush.
10 DR. TRUSH: Howdy.
11 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: You just recounted the history
12 really of the October 1995 Draft Stream Restoration Plan.
13 Let me ask you about one realization in that history. You
14 just said that you realized that channel maintenance flows
15 in D-1631 did not have a glimmer of a chance of bringing
16 back the pre-project streams?
17 DR. TRUSH: Especially -- oh, boy. I would definitely
18 say a glimmer of a chance on lower Lee Vining. Rush
19 Creek -- lower Rush Creek I'm not so sure about, but lower
20 Lee Vining with a hundred and fifty cfs max for one day no
21 way.
22 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, that was your opinion in the
23 course of the preparation of the October 1995 draft plan?
24 DR. TRUSH: Yeah.
25 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Is that your opinion today?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
2 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: On page two of your written
3 testimony you refer to "incipient mobility conditions."
4 Could you explain what that term means?
5 DR. TRUSH: Yes. It's what force is required to
6 entrain a particle off the channel bed. If we think about
7 an incline plain or -- the force that would move the rock is
8 the depth of the water and the slope of the water surface so
9 that the downstream component of the weight of the water is
10 what moves the rock, and you need a certain depth and slope
11 that will create a force that will eventually overcome
12 friction and mobilize the rock.
13 The reason why I can talk about the glimmer is when we
14 were out there watching Lee Vining Creek at 150 cfs, it was
15 running crystal clear. The bed was not moving and so
16 there's no way you can surpass a threshold either than
17 increasing the slope or increasing the depth via flows.
18 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, in the ad hoc subcommittee's
19 memorandum, which is Exhibit 1 to your written testimony on
20 behalf of the Mono Lake Committee, you describe the physical
21 processes which are caused by channel maintenance flows as
22 follows: "...bedload movement including scouring, bank
23 erosion, and deposition, interactions with the stream side,
24 floodplain, and interfluvial vegetation including
25 enhancement of germination, reduction of channel
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 encroachment, and recruitment of large woody debris..."
2 Does each of those physical processes have a different
3 incipient condition -- let me put that in terms that I can
4 understand.
5 Does each of those processes have a different
6 threshold of flow at which they begin to occur?
7 DR. TRUSH: You can group them. There are several
8 thresholds. I can't say that it each has a unique one, but
9 there are several thresholds and we tried to do that with
10 our report that Chris and I did in the monitoring plan to
11 show that we presented several attributes of alluvial
12 rivers, and in there we identified a couple of those
13 thresholds there.
14 One was the incipient motion of the bed. The other
15 was the mobilization of the bar features, sort of a less
16 frequent larger-scale process, and then another threshold
17 was the deposition of silt onto the floodplain to start
18 bringing back the confinement of the stream channel, which
19 was one of the main characteristics of the historic stream
20 channel. And the only way to get deposition onto a surface
21 is to have flow get onto the surface. Otherwise, there will
22 be no building of the banks.
23 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: For bedload movement what is your
24 estimate of the threshold flow necessary for Rush Creek?
25 DR. TRUSH: Well, Rush Creek we made estimates in two
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 ways. One was on the back of the envelope using a standard
2 shear stress equation where we take a pebble count. We
3 estimate the median particle size and then we ask ourselves:
4 How deep, given the present slope of the water surface
5 that's out there at high flow, given that slope how deep
6 would the water have to be to initiate movement? We then
7 take that depth and translate it into a flow and that was
8 our estimate.
9 We then took the historic channel, the one that was
10 left, sort of a remnant, and we looked at the slope. We did
11 a particle count and we estimated how deep that flow would
12 have to be in order to just mobilize the surface.
13 In alluvial stream channels we're finding that it's
14 around the one-and-a-half to the two-year annual maximum
15 flood that starts to move a significant part of the channel
16 bed. So we hypothesized that if we did this particle count,
17 the flow depth that we would estimate would be equivalent to
18 around a one-and-a-half to a two-year flood if the channel
19 was working alluvially, and that's what it came out to be.
20 So we felt pretty good about that.
21 On Lee Vining Creek --
22 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Excuse me, Dr. Trush. Before you
23 leave Rush Creek behind, what is that threshold flow in
24 cubic feet per second?
25 DR. TRUSH: Well, we're guesstimating -- and, again,
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 you can manipulate a variety of the equations with constants
2 in them of around 350. It could be as low as 300. It could
3 be up to 400, and what makes it particularly painful is it's
4 very close to the capacity of the dam, 380. So our
5 recommendation, our first shot at the mobility hovers right
6 around the operational capacity of the dam. If we're too
7 low, we're in error. If we're too high, it's a big stakes
8 thing and that's why we're not sure.
9 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: So your testimony is 300 to 400
10 cubic feet per second on Rush Creek creates the incipient
11 mobility condition for bedload movement?
12 DR. TRUSH: That's our first estimate.
13 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Okay. Now, proceed with Lee Vining
14 Creek.
15 DR. TRUSH: Lee Vining we put out -- in fact, I did
16 this with Fish and Game with Gary Smith. We spent some time
17 out there and we put out some marked rocks, painted them,
18 made them part of the bed and monitored it as well; and we
19 had a flow there of slightly over 400 cfs and we had
20 complete mobilization of the rocks.
21 When I went back and did my calculations again, given
22 that the channel's steeper, we needed a little less flow
23 but, again, in that 300 to 350 range is where my numbers
24 come out right now for incipient conditions in the
25 bottomland regions of Lee Vining.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, once the threshold flow has
2 been exceeded, what is the nature of the relationship
3 between flow and the physical process? Is it a linear
4 relationship?
5 DR. TRUSH: No, it's not linear.
6 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: What is it?
7 DR. TRUSH: You can get incrementally more scour with
8 a rather minor change in elevation of the bed. So you
9 can -- another additional foot of stage in the flood can
10 create some pretty tremendous forces on the bed partly
11 because it's not all uniformly applied across the channel.
12 On the outside of the bend it really picks up.
13 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: In Mono Lake Committee Exhibit 7,
14 which is Mr. Vorster's testimony, there's an Attachment 10
15 that compares the different channel maintenance schedules
16 which have been submitted to this Board over time.
17 Let me show you that table.
18 DR. TRUSH: Yeah, I looked at it.
19 MS. GOLDSMITH: Excuse me, what was the reference?
20 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Mono Lake Committee Exhibit 7.
21 Can you compare the channel maintenance work done as
22 you move from the right-hand side of that table, which is
23 Los Angeles' proposal in 1994 to the left, which is the
24 October 1995 draft plan?
25 DR. TRUSH: As we move from right to left they
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1074
1 increase in magnitude. Is that what you're asking?
2 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: The channel maintenance work
3 increases in magnitude?
4 DR. TRUSH: When you say "the work," I'm not quite
5 sure -- you mean as the recommended flows increase?
6 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: You have testified that the greater
7 the channel maintenance flows, the greater the work done by
8 the physical processes that maintain the channel; is that
9 correct?
10 DR. TRUSH: I'd rather not use the word "work." The
11 force of light of the bed because "work" is "Gee, I did that
12 lecture about four months ago and I forgot it now." It's a
13 rate -- I wouldn't use the word "work," but the amount of
14 force applied to the bed which can mobilize it goes up, yes.
15 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let's focus, then, on one process,
16 for the sake of clarity bedload movement.
17 This Board will consider the alternative flow
18 schedules which are before it in many different respects,
19 including bedload movement. In terms of bedload movement,
20 are the alternatives before this Board significantly
21 different in the results that you anticipate will occur?
22 DR. TRUSH: Significantly different than -- maybe you
23 should say that again. You kind of lost me.
24 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Will the October 1995 draft plan
25 cause significantly more bedload movement than the 1994
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 proposal submitted by Los Angeles?
2 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
3 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Will it cause significantly more
4 bedload movement than the February 1996 schedule recommended
5 by the ad hoc subcommittee?
6 DR. TRUSH: It's unknown at this time because of
7 the -- we've looked at these as minimum flows with the
8 attempt of getting them higher. That's why we drop these --
9 which we've gone over this before -- why we dropped them
10 from the October '95 level to the February '96 document we
11 dropped them somewhat because we would be operating for
12 maximums in those water years.
13 So I can't say they're going to be better or not.
14 It's going to be how well we can maximize those flows, and
15 part of that we as scientists had to figure in our fudge
16 factor of this on-the-envelope calculation. So we got a
17 little more conservative with the idea that we would
18 maximize and we would be monitoring this in the future to
19 see if we were right or not.
20 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: On page two of your written
21 testimony you describe a "50 cubic feet per second margin of
22 error." Could you explain what this is?
23 DR. TRUSH: Well, that's on the incipient motion, I
24 believe. Well, one other way you can forego using
25 equations -- because I have very strong distrust of them
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 except when I really have nothing else and what I like to do
2 is provide some empirical evidence. So what we do is we go
3 out and we put in marked rocks, really highly technical.
4 You dig a hole and fill it up with marked rocks. You come
5 back and you see what's left, and we estimate what the slope
6 of the water surface was and high how it was during the
7 peak. And we essentially go after a variety of floods with
8 the idea that some small floods will not reach incipient
9 condition and big floods will take everything away.
10 So we come at it from two different directions. In
11 between we get partial movement of various grades up to
12 total movement. It's never simple. So we define a window
13 of where we hit when the bed just starts to move and when
14 it's totally mobile, and we take that bottom and that upper
15 point and I think we can get to within 50 below and 50 above
16 the median, in that range.
17 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, the channel maintenance
18 schedule consists of three elements: magnitude, duration
19 and frequency. Let me focus on the second.
20 In point four on page two of this same written
21 testimony you state, "Peak flow duration was an extreme
22 uncertainty." Does that mean that you are extremely
23 uncertain what duration is necessary to accomplish these
24 physical processes?
25 DR. TRUSH: Well, the physical process of initiating
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 the bed is theoretically a moment in time, but there's other
2 aspects of how far downstream does this initiated bedload
3 move? How long do you need high flows to undercut the
4 outside of a meander bend?
5 The duration is probably the biggest unknown in the
6 fluvial geomorphology and if we go from a two to a five-day
7 duration, we're talking huge amounts of acre-feet of water.
8 I'm working on the Trinity River BIS for the flows below the
9 Trinity and there we're talking 700,000 cfs and -- so the
10 duration is a key, and I don't know how to get at it.
11 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Would it be fair to characterize
12 whatever channel maintenance schedule this Board picks as an
13 experiment insofar as you cannot today predict with
14 certainty what that schedule will do?
15 DR. TRUSH: Yes. Surpassing the physical threshold is
16 less experimental, and I think in a few years we could nail
17 that down. The threshold of inundating terraces, we can get
18 that fairly quickly; but the duration is clearly in the
19 experimental range.
20 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let me turn, finally, to the
21 monitoring plan which Los Angeles has submitted and which is
22 addressed on page three of your written testimony for the
23 Mono Lake Committee.
24 You recommend that the results of channel dynamics be
25 monitored at the end of five years to adjust, if needed, the
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1 recommended maintenance flow releases.
2 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
3 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: In that recommendation are you
4 referring to specific attributes of stream integrity about
5 which you previously testified?
6 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
7 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Which attributes?
8 DR. TRUSH: One, the mobility threshold. I forget
9 which number that is right now.
10 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let me provide you with the Blue
11 Book, which is Los Angeles Exhibit 23, and ask you to refer
12 to page three where these attributes are listed.
13 DR. TRUSH: Okay. I'm still in bifocal denial.
14 No. 4, the dominant particle size. Again, this is a
15 threshold. We feel we can get a better handle, probably not
16 as good as we'd like, on No. 5, No. 6, a good handle on
17 No. 7. Beginning to piece the story on No. 8, which is on
18 the riparian. And the "9" I'm not so sure where that --
19 we're targeting that so much, but definitely "4" and "7" and
20 to some degree "5" and "6" by five years I think we can do
21 it.
22 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: In Point 4 on page three of your
23 written testimony for the Mono Lake Committee you also
24 recommend revisiting the duration of the channel maintenance
25 flow schedules at the end of five years in order to evaluate
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1 the adequacy; is that correct?
2 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
3 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Which of the attributes would you
4 recommend be considered in that re-evaluation?
5 DR. TRUSH: Well, when we talk about No. 5, which is
6 the mobilization of these features, we might be able to
7 mobilize an entire point bar with a longer duration or
8 shorter duration relative to the magnitude. I think we're
9 just not sure, but I would look more towards adjusting the
10 duration on No. 5.
11 No. 4 still -- there's still a duration component
12 there in that once you initiate the particle, if you move
13 them off a ripple you definitely want the particles to make
14 it through a pool and down to the next ripple. Otherwise,
15 if it's just enough to initiate it off the ripple, it falls
16 into the pool, it doesn't come out of the pool.
17 So there's a duration aspect there that you just don't
18 know yet, whether that's going to be a day, three days, five
19 days. We took an arbitrary shot at about -- I think it was
20 a quarter of the natural duration for floods as a best
21 professional judgment to start with.
22 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Dr. Trush, let me turn finally to
23 page four of the Blue Book as it relates to the testimony
24 you have just given on behalf of the Mono Lake Committee.
25 On page four you recommend that the -- that
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 quantitative objectives be developed after three to five
2 years on the basis of monitoring results.
3 Do you recall that testimony on behalf of Los Angeles?
4 DR. TRUSH: I said some unless it's -- if it sounds
5 all-inclusive, it's not meant to be because I don't think we
6 can. But I think we can get a better handle on some of
7 those and in that mind -- in my mind that does include
8 aspects of duration and magnitude. Those are very
9 quantifiable goals to me, which is embodied in this
10 restoration plan, which seems to have missed some folks in
11 that everyone wants to see a channel width at the end of the
12 rainbow here.
13 Again, I have a hard time coming up with that. If we
14 left it at 150 cfs, we could never use the historic work
15 because the channel would have to get even smaller to adjust
16 to 150 cfs for Lee Vining. So the attained as attributes
17 through the adaptive management monitoring are very
18 quantitative goals.
19 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Now, in the testimony he just gave
20 Dr. Ridenhour recommended that tentative measurable
21 objectives be established now subject to adjustment as time
22 goes by on the basis of monitoring results.
23 As applied to your attributes of stream integrity, do
24 you have an opinion about his recommendation?
25 DR. TRUSH: Well, I think that -- I usually agree with
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1 Rich and, in fact, most of what he said I agree with. I
2 think Rich is coming from the perspective of keeping folks
3 who aren't into this process stuff happy and that if you
4 can't come up with some objectives in -- or now saying that
5 we want to create a certain wavelength and a certain width
6 folks will feel comfortable in that there's a completion to
7 this whole thing.
8 To say that we're just gonna create processes and let
9 it go is very uncomfortable. Remember, we are trying to
10 target the magnitude of these processes for the
11 pre-regulated ecosystem. So I don't agree that we need
12 those quantitative goals, as Rich says, to make this work.
13 Maybe politically we're still going to have to come up with
14 something, but as far as how I would manage it I don't need
15 them.
16 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Let's assume that this Board
17 directs you to convert your attributes of stream integrity
18 into quantitative objectives subject to adjustment on the
19 basis of monitoring results.
20 In your judgment, would those quantitative
21 objectives -- would the quantification of those objectives
22 have any value today in the direction of the restoration
23 program?
24 DR. TRUSH: Again, when you say "quantitative
25 objectives," I would come back with mobilization of the
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1 channel bed on the average once a year would be my
2 quantifiable objective. And if I could see that happening,
3 I'd be feeling pretty good.
4 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Thank you. No further questions.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you, Mr. Roos-Collins.
6 Ms. Cahill?
7 ---oOo---
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME:
10 MS. CAHILL: Good afternoon, Dr. Trush. In the
11 beginning of your direct testimony you talked about creating
12 a healthy stream but also -- I can't remember how you put
13 it, reaching back to --
14 DR. TRUSH: About my E.E. Cummings book?
15 MS. CAHILL: The historic -- keeping in touch with the
16 historic river.
17 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
18 MS. CAHILL: Basically, the historic river channel was
19 prepared by -- or was the historic channel prepared by what
20 we would now refer to as the "unimpaired flows"?
21 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
22 MS. CAHILL: And so if we want to keep in touch with
23 that historic river, when you're doing your back of the
24 envelope calculations are you using unimpaired flows or
25 impaired flows?
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1 DR. TRUSH: What we did when we looked at the historic
2 channel on Rush Creek when we did our analysis, we estimated
3 what the discharge would be that would just mobilize the bar
4 that was still there; but then when we went to look up what
5 flow that meant on a flood frequency curve, we used the
6 unregulated one and we had the hypothesis that it would be
7 about the one-and-a-half-year flood the way alluvial
8 channels work and that's what we found.
9 MS. CAHILL: Okay. So your one-and-a-half to two-year
10 flood was based basically on the unimpaired flow of the
11 stream?
12 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
13 MS. CAHILL: And I think you testified it was -- you
14 found that to be between 350 and 400 cfs?
15 DR. TRUSH: Yeah. Again, on that -- on the
16 cross-section we did there we also looked at parts of the
17 present day Rush Creek and there it's a little wider ranging
18 than the three to four hundred; but when I looked at the
19 historic channel given how I would manipulate the mannings,
20 roughness and the other things, between 350 and 400.
21 MS. CAHILL: Okay. Would that be the same above the
22 Narrows as below the Narrows?
23 DR. TRUSH: Yeah, above the Narrows is a sticky one in
24 that it's steeper and the banks are nowhere near as
25 erodible, and so I have a harder time coming up with what I
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 think is important there.
2 When Rich discussed the need for greater than 600, we
3 as scientists based that -- and I'm uncomfortable with it --
4 in that there was a large hole that Woody had dug up there,
5 just a big hole in a flat reach, and by every intention that
6 thing should have filled right up with the high flow; and it
7 was still deep and I don't get it. I still don't get it.
8 It was the worst place for a pool. It should have
9 filled in and it didn't and so Rich was saying, "We need
10 higher flows." I'm not convinced that it needs higher
11 flows. I think we have to wait for adaptive management and
12 monitoring up there to say that, but it does leave me
13 scratching my head.
14 MS. CAHILL: Okay. But, in any case, the flows needed
15 upstream of the Narrows are not necessarily the same as
16 those needed downstream?
17 DR. TRUSH: My guess would be less rather than more.
18 MS. CAHILL: When we talk about the very high flows,
19 the 600 cfs that the scientists originally talked about and
20 the 500 out of the ad hoc committee, what is it that we
21 expect those very high flows to do in addition to what the
22 350 to 400 cfs does?
23 DR. TRUSH: That's where we get to mobilizing an
24 entire feature, jumping a channel, kicking the heck out of a
25 floodplain, creating that structural diversity. Whereas the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 lower flow is almost in the true essence the maintenance
2 flow, just mobilize the bed, transport it through the pools,
3 kind of keep the everyday affairs going; whereas the bigger
4 one resets it and creates the diversity.
5 MS. CAHILL: Okay. And then in trying to figure out
6 what's the appropriate bigger one, you would also tend to
7 take into account unimpaired flows?
8 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
9 MS. CAHILL: The Los Angeles plan differs from even
10 the ad hoc committee plan primarily in the recommendations
11 in dry and dry-normal years.
12 Are you comfortable that the flows recommended for the
13 dry normal years would be sufficient?
14 DR. TRUSH: Well, again, after that memo was put out
15 we did discuss again with LA. So it didn't come out totally
16 out of the blue; and Rich and Chris and I did drop a little
17 bit down again on those lower flows, particularly on the dry
18 years because, as Rich said, the hundred cfs we couldn't
19 come up with a function -- physical function for it, but we
20 did think it was important for sustaining ground water in
21 some way to the side channels.
22 But, again, if we stayed at the 200 to 250, I don't
23 think -- and I think the monitoring will show -- that we're
24 not surpassing the threshold and we do want to reach that
25 threshold once every -- on the average once a year or every
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 two years and that range is what we want; and if we can't do
2 that by managing for maximum flows in those dryer water
3 years, then I would be concerned.
4 MS. CAHILL: Okay. So you consider it at least
5 possible that if you go out and monitor property, you may
6 find that those flows in, let's say, dry-normal years will
7 prove to be inadequate?
8 DR. TRUSH: They could.
9 MS. CAHILL: In fact, would you expect that?
10 DR. TRUSH: Well, this is getting more towards the
11 dryer end of the normal year where, again, we're now still
12 in that one to two-year flood range and that's where it
13 worries me. Below that, the hundred cfs I have no
14 expectation of doing all the geomorphic work.
15 MS. CAHILL: All right. The 200 cfs -- 250 cfs isn't
16 adequate to actually monitor the --
17 DR. TRUSH: I'm sorry. I don't think so, but I'm not
18 positive. On Lee Vining Creek much more so confident than
19 on Rush Creek.
20 MS. CAHILL: Do you have any concern that the 250 cfs
21 flow will be inadequate to recharge the ground water in the
22 amount that it needs to be?
23 DR. TRUSH: Well, the need to be is still open and I
24 think one of the -- one goal that we would like to come up
25 with that we envision in the monitoring plan is by
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 increasing the flows I don't think there's that much change
2 in stage height between 200 and 250 cfs that's going to
3 affect the ground water very dramatically -- differently.
4 But how much does the water table have to be elevated before
5 the plants can take advantage of it? What's that threshold?
6 And that's where the piezometer monitoring will come
7 in, because the higher terraces used to get flooded more
8 often by the same flow because the channel was narrow; but
9 when there was the widespread erosion of the cross-section,
10 those higher terraces now require ungodly flows to ever
11 inundate them and they never will be inundated, whereas
12 before they would by the same -- by 500 flow or 800 flow now
13 you would need a 2,000 cfs event to inundate it.
14 So what we envisioned in our plan was by looking at
15 where plants were coming back and where they weren't we
16 could get a handle on how close does the ground water have
17 to be to initiate some change? And that's part of the
18 adaptive monitoring. Then we could say, "All right, here's
19 a terrace where no matter what, even in a high flow year the
20 ground water only gets to within five feet of the surface."
21 We found that that's not enough. We've done the best we
22 can. You can't do any more than that. So, therefore, we
23 have to make a decision for that terrace, whether to leave
24 it upland range or to maybe plant something like a Jeffrey
25 pine on it.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MS. CAHILL: Okay. With regard to the monitoring
2 plan, basically I think you've already explained this once
3 what you meant by "representative reach." Could you --
4 DR. TRUSH: Gee, I wish I could remember that one
5 because I don't think I did a very good job. I think I said
6 what it wasn't rather than what it was.
7 We didn't have any specific criteria that we used. In
8 other words, we didn't like go every hundred feet and do an
9 inventory and then go back and look for kind of homogenous
10 reaches that represented it. We looked for areas that had
11 some good data in the past and access wasn't too much of an
12 issue.
13 We really just knew that the bottomlands since they
14 were the most sensitive needed the most sampling, and we
15 tried to get at least two complete meander wavelengths
16 inside each of the reaches and we tried to pick areas that
17 weren't as liable to the downcutting. We wanted to be sure
18 we were up rather than down of that. Other than that,
19 "representative" was our opinion of a reach that was a
20 reasonable facsimile of the entire stretch of river.
21 MS. CAHILL: It was a reasonable facsimile of the
22 entire stretch?
23 MR. BIRMINGHAM: Excuse me, Mr. Caffrey. I'm going to
24 object to this question.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Birmingham.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. BIRMINGHAM: If the Department of Fish and Game
2 and other parties wants to reopen their cross-examination of
3 Dr. Trush based upon the direct testimony he provided for
4 the Department of Water and Power in connection with the
5 monitoring plan, I think that they should be forced to make
6 a motion to reopen that cross-examination and make a showing
7 that the -- it's necessary to recross-examination on this
8 issue.
9 I understand the Hearing Officer's ruling with respect
10 to the Board's scope of cross-examination that it is not
11 limited to the matters which are contained in the direct
12 testimony; but, in fact, what's going on here is a
13 recross-examination of this witness on DWP's monitoring plan
14 on which he provided direct testimony.
15 MS. CAHILL: We are willing to limit the questioning
16 to today's testimony.
17 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Well, then, perhaps
18 it's not necessary for me to make a ruling if you're willing
19 to do so. Why don't you proceed.
20 MR. BIRMINGHAM: I don't know if there are any parties
21 that are going to attempt to do so. If they do, I'll stand
22 up and make the same objection.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: At that particular time maybe I'll
24 make a ruling.
25 MR. BIRMINGHAM: Okay.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: But since we have agreement here at
2 least with regard to these particular questions, why don't
3 you proceed, Ms. Cahill.
4 MS. CAHILL: Dr. Trush, in the Department of Fish and
5 Game's general comments on the Habitat Restoration Plan we
6 had the following statement: The goal of the LADWP plan is
7 to develop functional and self-sustaining stream systems
8 with healthy riparian ecosystem components. This goal goes
9 only partway toward the necessary restoration because it
10 lacks the vital link with the pre-1941 conditions and the
11 potential of the streams. A very small stream might be
12 self-sustaining and have a healthy riparian ecosystem, but
13 it would not be what Rush and Lee Vining Creeks were prior
14 to diversion or have the potential to be given their natural
15 size. Would you agree with that statement?
16 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
17 MS. CAHILL: It's frequently said that in order to
18 restore a stream we need to mimic natural stream flows in
19 terms of timing, magnitude and duration.
20 I don't know if you've used that term, but if you have
21 can you define for me what "mimic" would mean in that case?
22 DR. TRUSH: It can get you in real big trouble. I
23 used that word on the Tuolumne and caught all kinds of heat.
24 We do try to reproduce the variability. We do try
25 to -- flows -- I'm not a real geomorphologist either when
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 you were asking about this. No one else asked me that.
2 When we talk about flows, we're talking about
3 thresholds. We're talking about lots of different
4 processes. The flow itself is important, but what it does
5 is probably even more important. So what we're trying to do
6 is try to mimic the processes rather than flows themselves,
7 but we've got to watch that when we're below the dam. We
8 can't entirely mimic everything for one because most dams
9 cut off the sediment supply. So if we advocate the historic
10 flood levels, then we're in big trouble because we have no
11 sediment supply. The Rush and Lee Vining was a lot easier
12 because there was always a lake on Rush Creek. So there
13 always was a sediment trap relative to upstream for the
14 course of material. So we didn't have to consider the
15 bedload budget.
16 We agreed in our plan and others that we need to make
17 sure that we have the sediment bypass to feed it. Other
18 than that, that's how this system worked. It got its
19 alluvium from its tribs and from reworking its alluvium as
20 it migrated. So we didn't have to worry about it.
21 On the Tuolumne when we said "mimic," folks were
22 going, "Whoa, 50,000 cfs is going to transport all the
23 bedload." We didn't mean that. We meant the processes, not
24 the actual magnitudes.
25 MS. CAHILL: And I think I heard you say earlier today
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 that it was your understanding that the flows in the Los
2 Angeles plan were minimums and there would be an attempt to
3 release more water than that if possible. Did you say that?
4 DR. TRUSH: Yes, and we did that because of the water
5 classification system. There's such a wide range in water
6 years within a water year type that if we came up with a
7 higher level, in many years we would be recommending a flow
8 that didn't even exist because it was too high. So that's
9 why we dropped it saying that in those years within the
10 water year class where it's feasible to go higher, we
11 expected the effort to be made to maximize it.
12 MS. CAHILL: Would you be concerned if those flows
13 were, in fact, treated as maximums?
14 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
15 MS. CAHILL: Okay, thank you. No further questions.
16 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Thank you, Ms. Cahill.
17 Ms. Scoonover?
18 MS. SCOONOVER: I have no questions.
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: No questions from Ms. Scoonover,
20 all right.
21 Staff, questions?
22 MR. CANADAY: Just one.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Mr. Canaday.
24 ///
25 ///
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 ---oOo---
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY STAFF:
4 MR. CANADAY: On page three of your testimony you're
5 referring to Parker and Walker Creeks as far as their
6 bedload transport. I want to be sure I understand what your
7 recommendation is. What are you recommending here for --
8 DR. TRUSH: Bedload passage.
9 MR. CANADAY: So for not just sediment, but large
10 material as well?
11 DR. TRUSH: When I think of "sediment," I think more
12 so of the coarser bed material.
13 MR. CANADAY: Okay. And according to your testimony,
14 you don't think that assessment has been made yet?
15 DR. TRUSH: As to whether it can pass or not?
16 MR. CANADAY: Yeah.
17 DR. TRUSH: No, it hasn't.
18 MR. CANADAY: Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Anything else from staff?
20 MR. FRINK: No.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I have no questions.
22 Redirect, Mr. Dodge?
23 MR. DODGE: Just one area, Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, sir.
25 ///
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 ---oOo---
2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY NATIONAL AUDUBON SOCIETY AND MONO LAKE COMMITTEE:
4 MR. DODGE: Dr. Trush, look at page three of your
5 testimony, paragraph seven.
6 DR. TRUSH: I don't have it here.
7 MR. DODGE: All right. I'll read you the part I'm
8 interested in. "I recommend the following with respect to
9 flow recommendations: 1. Procedural criteria need to be
10 drafted that direct LADWP to maximize flow releases within
11 each water year type."
12 Now, to what sorts of procedural criteria did you
13 refer, sir?
14 DR. TRUSH: Well, that given -- when you went back and
15 looked at what the flows were for that water year, that
16 there would be a definable chain of decisions that anyone
17 could follow that would say "yes" this was how it was done
18 and that this was the way we agreed to do it. It's far
19 easier for me to say that than to come up with them, but
20 that's what I envisioned.
21 MR. DODGE: Would my procedural criteria include
22 coordination with Southern California Edison?
23 DR. TRUSH: It could.
24 MR. DODGE: Would my procedural criteria include
25 maintenance of Grant Lake storage at high levels before the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 high runoff?
2 DR. TRUSH: A variety of methods, sure.
3 MR. DODGE: When DWP presented its channel maintenance
4 flow to you, were those presented to you as minimum flows?
5 DR. TRUSH: Which presented to us? I'm not sure what
6 you mean. After our February meeting --
7 MR. DODGE: Yes, sir.
8 DR. TRUSH: During that we all agreed that those were
9 minimums and we attempted to maximize them.
10 MR. DODGE: Were you told by Los Angeles
11 representatives that efforts would be made to maximize the
12 channel maintenance flows in each year type?
13 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
14 MR. DODGE: Were you told how they would do that?
15 DR. TRUSH: No, and they asked for suggestions and we
16 talked a little bit about it; but they're gonna be the ones
17 that are gonna have to come up with that.
18 MR. DODGE: Did you make any substantive suggestions?
19 DR. TRUSH: Not really.
20 MR. DODGE: If I may -- in an effort to avoid bringing
21 Dr. Trush back, if I may go for one minute into an area
22 that's technically rebuttal?
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: You're all looking at me.
24 Mr. Frink.
25 MR. FRINK: If everyone else is in agreement and could
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 save Dr. Trush a trip, I think it would be worthwhile.
2 MR. BIRMINGHAM: May I have a moment?
3 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes, you may, Mr. Birmingham.
4 MR. BIRMINGHAM: I've got no objection, but Mr. Dodge
5 has assured me it's only one question.
6 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Is it a multi-part question?
7 MR. DODGE: Well, if I can get Dr. Trush to give me a
8 quick, direct answer here there will only be one question.
9 You've heard Dr. Boone Kauffman on Channel 10
10 rewatering. Do you recall that testimony?
11 DR. TRUSH: Oh, yes.
12 MR. DODGE: You heard Dr. Richard Ridenhour on
13 Channel 10?
14 DR. TRUSH: Yes.
15 MR. DODGE: Who do you agree with?
16 DR. TRUSH: Rich.
17 MR. DODGE: Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank you for the succinct answer.
19 All right, where does that leave us?
20 MR. FRINK: Recross, if there is any.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right, let's go down the list.
22 Mr. Birmingham rises. Obviously he has questions.
23 MR. BIRMINGHAM: I have to earn my money today
24 somehow.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Glad to see you.
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. BIRMINGHAM: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Late as it is, you're here.
3 ---oOo---
4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT OF WATER AND POWER:
6 MR. BIRMINGHAM: Dr. Trush, on redirect Mr. Dodge
7 asked you a couple questions about your first comment on
8 paragraph 7.1 on page three of your testimony which refers
9 to procedural criteria needed to maximize flow releases, and
10 he asked you if a coordination with Southern California
11 Edison was one of those potential criteria and if
12 maintenance of high lake levels in Grant Lake was another
13 potential criteria and you said they were; is that correct?
14 DR. TRUSH: Potential, yes.
15 MR. BIRMINGHAM: But you're not recommending those,
16 are you?
17 DR. TRUSH: No, I'm saying they're just a suite of
18 many that could be used.
19 MR. BIRMINGHAM: All right, thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I'm sorry, I lost my train of
21 thought here. Where are we?
22 DR. TRUSH: We're done.
23 MR. FRINK: We're almost done. There might be some
24 other parties who have recross-examination.
25 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let's see, nobody's here from the
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
1098
1 Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Bellomos,
2 Arcularius Ranch. Dr. Ridenhour has left.
3 Mr. Roos-Collins, do you have --
4 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: No questions, Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: No recross.
6 Ms. Cahill?
7 MS. CAHILL: No questions.
8 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Scoonover?
9 MS. SCOONOVER: No questions.
10 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: And Mr. Dodge is with us so there
11 we are. Staff has one.
12 ---oOo---
13 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY STAFF:
15 MR. JOHNS: We can't let you off too easily.
16 On this procedural criteria that we talked about,
17 you're fairly familiar with a lot of different watersheds in
18 the State of California. Have you been following at all
19 what's been going on in the Bay-Delta system and Bay-Delta
20 standards in the operation of this group?
21 DR. TRUSH: I've avoided that one.
22 MR. JOHNS: Good for you. Thank you very much.
23 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I take it, Mr. Dodge, that you're
24 going to be submitting your exhibits all together at a later
25 date?
CAPITOL REPORTERS (916) 923-5447
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1 MR. DODGE: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Okay. Before we adjourn for today
3 I think I need to ask, since we are running a little bit
4 behind, what's the availability of witnesses as we now have
5 them listed for the 24th?
6 I was -- did I hear earlier that Scott Stine is only
7 available on the 24th?
8 MS. SCOONOVER: The 24th and the 26th.
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: The 24th and the 26th.
10 MS. SCOONOVER: The 26th until about 1:00 PM.
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Okay. Maybe rather than try to
12 figure this out here, I could ask Mr. Frink to take another
13 look at this and see if there's any further modification
14 that we might make to this list and get back to the parties
15 in a big hurry.
16 MR. FRINK: Actually, Mr. Johns has been very
17 efficient with that.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Oh, he's already done that? All
19 right, what is it? Anything you can share with us at this
20 point, gentlemen?
21 MR. JOHNS: Beyond a whip and a chair I would suggest
22 we try to get through as far as we can and if we can't get
23 Scott's testimony in on the 24th, that maybe we carry it
24 over until the 26th.
25 I know that Ms. Scoonover has expressed a concern that
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1 her witnesses be crossed as a panel and it's possible that
2 we might have to interrupt cross-examination of that panel
3 and bring them back on the 26th or something, but that's
4 kind of up to you on how you want to handle that; but that
5 would accommodate at least Mr. Stine. I don't know about
6 the other parties.
7 MR. DODGE: How will we -- what will we do on the
8 morning of the 24th, which is about as far as I can plan?
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: On the morning of the 24th I was
10 planning just to resume where we left off, which would then
11 be Mr. Vorster with regard to the stream plan and then --
12 MR. JOHNS: What we might want to do in this case is
13 to have Cal Trout go first and let the Mono Lake Committee
14 finish with their witnesses and be done with it and then do
15 the cross of the parties that we talked about on the 24th
16 and Scott would be -- I mean, pardon me, Peter would be
17 testifying not only on the stream stuff, but also on the
18 waterfowl stuff.
19 MR. DODGE: On the 24th you want Peter to do
20 everything?
21 MR. JOHNS: Sure, why not. He's a multi-faceted
22 person. He can do it all.
23 MR. FRINK: He could hold his testimony on the stream
24 stuff until Cal Trout puts on its other witnesses. It's up
25 to you guys to arrange it how you'd like. He could either
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1 go with the first panel or the second panel.
2 MR. JOHNS: Well, that's a good point.
3 MR. DODGE: Let me ask this: Who do I have to
4 coordinate with for the 24th? Is it just Mr. Roos-Collins
5 and I that have to coordinate?
6 MR. JOHNS: That's what it appears.
7 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: That's what it looks like, yes.
8 MR. DODGE: All right, then we will do that.
9 MR. JOHNS: Okay. We'll just have to kind of play it
10 by ear and see how we go on the 24th, and if we have to we
11 might want to bring back Mr. Stine or some of the other
12 witnesses for the State Lands perhaps on the 26th if we
13 can't finish them on the 24th.
14 MR. DODGE: Mr. Roos-Collins and I will be in
15 Sacramento tomorrow. So we will coordinate at that time and
16 we will give everyone as much advance notice as we can as to
17 which witnesses they have to be ready to cross.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let me say that I appreciate the
19 fact that you've all made attempts to be as brief as we can.
20 I'm going to continue to try and avoid night sessions. If
21 we come to the completion of any given day of testimony and
22 it makes some sense to stay a little bit longer to get
23 somebody out, we'll certainly consider doing that; but as a
24 general rule we'll try to stay within getting out of here
25 by, say, 5:00 or 5:30 and hopefully that won't mean adding
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1 days; but if we get down to the 26th and we're about done,
2 we can take that into a night session just to complete. So
3 that's how we'll proceed. Hopefully we won't have to add
4 any more days, but I'm not saying that we won't.
5 Anything else we need to discuss until we adjourn
6 until Monday? Mr. Roos-Collins.
7 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I do have a question
8 regarding rebuttal testimony --
9 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Yes.
10 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: -- which was set for the 26th --
11 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Right.
12 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: -- in the February 10th notice.
13 That notice does not specify whether written rebuttal
14 testimony is expected.
15 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, you mean as an -- oh, you
16 don't mean as an alternative to --
17 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: No.
18 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Mr. Frink, what were
19 your thoughts on that? I'm not sure what we want to do on
20 that.
21 MR. FRINK: Ordinarily the Board does not require that
22 the rebuttal be submitted in writing ahead of time and in
23 this instance, in fact, some of the direct examination will
24 be completed on the 25th. So it might be hard to complete
25 written rebuttal. So ordinarily we wouldn't require that.
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1 There's a possibility if there's a problem in getting a
2 particular witness here and everybody stipulates that they
3 could submit something in writing for rebuttal, perhaps in
4 that way we would look at it.
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Let's try something else. Is there
6 anybody that would be interested in not having rebuttal?
7 MR. DODGE: Mr. Frink is the master of understatement
8 when he says there might be a problem to submit it in
9 writing by the 26th.
10 MR. JOHNS: The one area I might clarify is that we
11 did send a letter on February 10th where the Chairman talked
12 about comments on the monitoring plan. Probably in theory
13 that probably would be rebuttal. We have asked the parties
14 to go ahead and submit that as direct and submit it in
15 writing and treat it as direct testimony rather than
16 rebuttal.
17 So in that case we have asked the parties to try to
18 get that stuff in writing ahead of time and treat it as
19 direct testimony because of the delay in getting to the
20 parties for testimony.
21 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I don't know that we've answered
22 the question.
23 MR. FRINK: Well, the short answer to the question is
24 we don't ordinarily require rebuttal testimony to be
25 submitted in writing.
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1 Is that what you were wondering, Richard?
2 MR. ROOS-COLLINS: I'm not asking about ordinary
3 procedure. I'm asking what your expectation is for February
4 26th?
5 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Unless somebody has an argument to
6 make supporting the requirement of rebuttal testimony to be
7 submitted in writing, I don't feel the need to have it.
8 Mr. Frink, do you have an argument that --
9 MR. FRINK: No.
10 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: There's no reason to deviate from
11 the norm. So we won't require it.
12 Mr. Birmingham.
13 MR. BIRMINGHAM: Yes. While we have a few minutes
14 this afternoon, Mr. Caffrey, I wonder if I could raise a
15 procedural issue so we'll avoid taking time at the beginning
16 of the next hearing.
17 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Please.
18 MR. BIRMINGHAM: The order of examination is that the
19 Department of Water and Power follows the direct by the
20 proponent of the witness. That puts the Department of Water
21 and Power at a slight disadvantage because, as you may have
22 gathered from the questioning, the Department of Water and
23 Power is aligned against most of the other parties, with a
24 few exceptions, and I wonder if with respect to those -- the
25 remaining parties we -- the Department of Water and Power
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1 could follow or be the last party to cross-examine?
2 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Well, actually, what I've been
3 doing, and I never thought about it in that context, but
4 what I've been doing is going to the top of the list in
5 every instance; but I understand what you're saying and I
6 understand your concern.
7 Another way to approach it would be just to pick up
8 with whoever is on in the order one through twelve
9 immediately after the direct as perhaps a compromise. I
10 don't know.
11 What do you think, Mr. Frink? Any thoughts?
12 MR. FRINK: I understand the point Mr. Birmingham is
13 making and it actually might expedite things if they didn't
14 have to envision what somebody else might be asking about on
15 cross-examination and ask their own questions accordingly if
16 they could just wait until the other party's
17 cross-examination is completed. So having them at the end
18 of cross-examination when we're dealing with witnesses the
19 City of Los Angeles may disagree with probably makes sense.
20 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: So you think it would be fair to
21 let them ask questions at the very end of the order?
22 MR. FRINK: Yeah, just move their cross-examination to
23 the end of the order of the parties.
24 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Scoonover.
25 MS. SCOONOVER: Mr. Caffrey, I don't have a specific
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1 problem with Mr. Birmingham's request. I do take issue a
2 little bit with his characterization that it's the
3 Department of Water and Power versus the other parties.
4 I think that the State Lands Commission and the
5 Department of Parks and Recreation have serious disagreement
6 with the Bellomos and the Bellomos' testimony and that there
7 are other aspects of the Waterfowl Habitat Restoration Plan
8 in particular that are contentious among a number of
9 parties.
10 MR. BIRMINGHAM: And that's why I was very careful to
11 not state it in categorical terms, but I said for the most
12 part. I think if we ask the reporter to read back my words,
13 those words or something like that was contained in my
14 statement. I will acknowledge that there are disagreements
15 between the State Lands Commission and People for Mono Basin
16 Preservation.
17 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: I appreciate everybody's effort to
18 be clear. From this point on we will -- when we get to
19 cross-examination we will allow you to go last then,
20 Mr. Birmingham.
21 MR. BIRMINGHAM: Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: All right. Is there anything else
23 in terms of housekeeping that we need to do today,
24 Mr. Frink?
25 MR. FRINK: I don't believe so.
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1 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Ms. Cahill.
2 MS. CAHILL: In response to the Board's request that
3 the parties submit testimony on the monitoring plan as soon
4 as possible, we have prepared testimony by Gary Smith and I
5 will fax it to Los Angeles' attorney today and hand deliver
6 it to the Board tomorrow.
7 MR. BIRMINGHAM: If she hand -- I'm not going to look
8 at it tonight. If you hand deliver it tomorrow, that will
9 be fine.
10 MS. CAHILL: Okay. We will either hand deliver or
11 mail it to the various parties tomorrow.
12 CHAIRMAN CAFFREY: Thank for your willingness to
13 expedite matters, Ms. Cahill. We appreciate that.
14 All right, then. We'll see you all Monday morning
15 here at 9:00 AM. Thank you again.
16 (Whereupon the proceedings were adjourned at 4:40 PM.)
17 ---oOo---
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 ---oOo---
3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
) ss.
4 COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO )
5
6 I, TERI L. VERES, certify that I was the Official
7 Court Reporter for the proceedings named herein, and that
8 as such reporter I reported in verbatim shorthand writing
9 those proceedings; that I thereafter caused my shorthand
10 writing to be reduced to typewriting, and the pages numbered
11 850 through 1108 herein constitute a complete, true and
12 correct record of the proceedings:
13 PRESIDING OFFICER: JAMES CAFFREY, Chairman
CAUSE: Mono Basin
14 DATE OF PROCEEDINGS: Tuesday, February 18, 1997
15
16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed this
17 certificate at Sacramento, California, on this 23rd day
18 of February, 1997.
19
20
21
___________________________
22 TERI L. VERES, CSR NO. 7522
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